Just looking for some thoughts on run training. I focused on running this fall and got some good results for me. 1:20:xx for 13.1 on a rolling course and a 59:20 for 10 miles on a flat course. Using McMillian those scale up to 2:46-2:48 marathon. My training was mostly 45-55 mpw with long runs 10-13 miles. Obviously I need to do more long runs for a marathon, but how much overall volume do I need? I looked at Advanced Marathoning up to 70 mpw plan, but I don’t think I can handle that with family and work commitments.
So the question is given what I did on the training I did is 2:50 within reach? I think I could get up to 60 mpw with one long run and one mid distance run.
I did a similar thing last fall with times just a hair slower. I crashed and burned the last five km of the marathon…I really think the volume is required and I would say 60m per week would be the absolute minimum
i think volume is essential. this fall i too focused on running and dropped my marathon pr by 32 mins (mainly due to a consistent running and staying healthy), but i never reached over 48 mpw, which showed greatly in the last 3 miles where i struggled to finish at go within goal pace range. i think if i jumped to consistent 60 mpw i could have run faster. also adding more intensity. fwiw, i was reading an article in this month’s runners world about the hanson’s approach to marathon training. it tops out at about 60 mpw and you never run more than a 16 mile long run, but with a lot more mp runs etc… check it out. it seems all their plans are like that.
I’d agree 60-70mpw is the bare minimum to get to that level. Try to get there by upping running frequency. Split your midweek longer run over two sessions in the same day, with the later one being the tougher one.
I am a 3h marathoner from a base of 20-25mpw going 45-50mpw during marathon prep.
The last 2 months i upped my base to 40-45mpw, and just started my 18 week prep for Boston. Peak weeks will be +/-70mpw.
I let you know in April if it worked to get me sub 3h.
While I typically don’t get into the training threads…
I’ll disagree that you ‘have to have’ more volume. I did 2:54 on 45mpw (or less) - and I’d go out on a limb and say that on that particular race day I probably could have run faster (likely 2:50-2:51 without issue) if I simply had a reason to run faster the last 4-5 miles. Legs and energy were fine, I just had blown away my goal times by a lot, so I was really more enjoying it than trying to keep on pushing - in hindsight I wish I had kept on pushing… I would note that I was coming off an IM some 12 weeks prior - so my base was pretty solid at that point.
At any rate…
I don’t think it’s about volume as it is about specificity. I did it on essentially three runs a week:
20 miler
Track workout focusing on 8-16 mile repeats slightly than race pace (above 6:00)
Track workout focusing on .75-2.5mile repeats a fair bit faster than race pace (slightly below-6)
I’m not going to say that what worked for me will work for you, or offer any advice on how you should train - I’m just giving a random data point on how I did. In general, that data point probably doesn’t mean much.
My times were almost identical to yours, half was a little faster and 10 mile was a little slower. I ran a 2:45 in October.
Averaged about 45mpw for the year, but that was for the whole year (so including a few weeks of 0-10 miles around the holidays and weeks with low mileage because of tapers). Leading into the marathon, the last 12 weeks I averaged about 55mpw and the last month was closer to 65 miles.
A week generally looked like this.
M-Easy Run
T-Mid-distance Run
W-Hill Repeats
T-Mid-distance Run
F-Tempo Run
S-Easy Run
S-Long Run (I had 2 runs of 20+, but probably 6 runs of 18+)
The tempo runs were key. They started with 20 min of work at Daniels T-Pace, then worked up to 40 min of work at T+15sec/mile, then worked up to 60 min of work at T+30sec/mile. Each of those runs had 10-15min of W/U and C/D.
I would just try to up the mileage of your long run and keep everything else more or less constant. Seems like you are more or less at 2:50 fitness already.
Have you run 26 miles (or more) before?
if you’ve got those sorts of times on shorter courses then yes, you’ve got the potential for a really fast marathon. Very few folks will get their best time on their first try, though.
60 mpw is plenty, IMHO, but getting the marathon right is tricky.
At your level what you’ll find is the first 20 miles running at about 6:20’ish pace will seem like a joke, then wham! it hits you. Not the wall, that so many talk about, but it does come around about the two hour mark ironically enough. The legs will just lock up, and you will within a very short period of time go from running those effortless 6 min/miles to struggling to run 8 min/miles and wondering if you can even finish the darn race.
The workout and the training that often goes missing for folks in this area is the race-pace run. They spend a lot of time either running slower or faster than the exact marathon goal race pace. A weekly run at ever increasing distance at exactly the goal marathon race pace is very helpful. As this run increases in didtance it will get harder and harder and likley fall outside of many marathon run training plans . . but I think that it’s essential.
Try to have a good number of weeks at 60 mpw then, if that is as high as you can get. You can achieve your goal without the higher volume, but it will make it a little harder. Achieving consistency with the volume you can do will help a lot. That’s the most important thing, to my mind
Second most important is practicing the pace your are aiming for. A lot. Get marathon-paced runs in. Not mile repeats on the track. Not 5k/10k/half-marathon races faster than you’ll run the marathon. Runs at your goal marathon pace. By the time you race, you want to have at least 6 runs in which you ran at least 6 miles at your goal marathon pace. Maybe a 10 miler with 2 x 3 mile at goal pace. And try to get make at least 2 of those runs include 8-12 miles at your goal pace, preferrably all in one block.
You have got to get your body to be able to just dial in that goal pace for extended periods of time. Absolutely critical. That’s not to say don’t race a 5k/10k/half-marathon. Just don’t let one of those keep you from getting in some specificity. Get very familiar with what 6:29/mile (2:50 marathon pace) feels like.
Least important is the long run. The long run is the most overrated part of marathon training. That doesn’t mean you don’t need to do them. You absolutely do. But you don’t need one every week and you should not allow one to interfere with either your weekly volume or a planned marathon-paced run. One big run done once a week isn’t the thing that’s going to get you there. Particularly if it comes out to 1/3 of your weekly mileage.
The problem is that strangely that sort of run/effort/intensity, however you want to call it at marathon race pace seems to fall outside of what is “recommended” in many of these canned marathon training programs. After about 10 miles at that pace many are into that zone3 area that many coaches and programs seem to oddly poo poo and say is verboten.
I agree with you on the “long run”. Many are lulled into a false sense of security because they have done all these long runs, at a much slower pace, and then on race day for the marathon thinking they can just dial it up and away they go . . . sorry, body does not work that way.
Specificity not volume is the key. It’s the same concePt as endurance nation tri plans.
and that’s why endurance nation has so many fast triathletes and 2:50 marathoners to their credit.
Many are lulled into a false sense of security because they have done all these long runs, at a much slower pace, and then on race day for the marathon thinking they can just dial it up and away they go . . . sorry, body does not work that way.
mine does.
or did, anyway, last time i ran a marathon (Fall 09).
not saying that race pace is bad, just that it was what I paid the least attention to in my last marathon, and I was still able to meet the goal I set out when I started my training.
there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
To answer one question, yes I have run plenty of marathons, but never really focused on that distance. I have done plenty of IM’s, 70.3’s, whatever, but scaled down a few years ago when the kiddo’s came. Now I have a little more flexibility with my job so I can train a bit more.
I am just trying to decide if I should give it a go for a fast marathon (for me) or stick to the middle distance stuff. I haven’t run a marathon since Boston in 07 when I swore I would never do another. Also I am trying to drop another 5-7 pounds which will obviously help my speed.
However, say your marathon goal is 2:50( about 6:25ish pace) I challenge you to do all of your longer running at 7:00 - 7:30 pace(common for people around this level) and all of your “faster” running ( intervals, fartlek, tempo whatever) sub 6:25 with little or no actually time spent at 6:25min/mile, and then tell us how it goes.** **Seriously.
OnT: get the tempo, interval and FMP (fucking marathon pace) runs in and add the regular runs that are needed to be able to do the workouts. Don’t think, run.
I’m done with racing marathons for a bit.
what you’re describing, though, isn’t that far off from what I did last fall.
I was going for sub-3, not 2:50. I did that with a mix of long runs at significantly slower than race pace, a variety of weekly runs also slower than race pace - probably more like 7:45-8:30, and 1-2 runs a week that were faster than race pace or, at least, harder than race effort (sometimes tempo, sometimes track, a few hill workouts, yassos, there were 2 fast-finish long runs in there, a half marathon, and some trail races).
in the last week or two i tried to do some race-pace work,and never quite hit my splits; i’d be too fast one lap, too slow the next.
i was thrilled with my race. finished in 2:57. i don’t know if it’s the fastest time i’ve got in me, but if it isn’t, it’s close.
i had a sense of the splits i wanted to hit, tapered well, and had run 2 marathons previously, so I had a good sense of what i was in for .
look, there are wrong ways to train for a marathon. but there is no one right way.
-Charles (not ‘Bob,’ btw, my screen name is a tv character)