Drafting penalties. I know I wasn’t drafting, or at least I wasn’t gaining any advantage from it. But when you’ve got one lane to work with and the purple mountain bikes are riding 2 abreast, it gets awfully crowded awfully quick…
I had a great bike (for me), 1:09 at NYC. Would have been top 25 in my AG, which is great (for me). I’m reasonably certain of when I picked up the penalty and I’ll bet the other three guys did too. We were riding well spaced, passing and even dropping back properly when passed. But then we got to a crowded section and BAM, nowhere to go. So we ended up piled up, trying to get around a couple slower riders (who if there’s ANY justice in this world, should have picked up blocking penalties). I had a feeling someone was going to get a penalty, but by the time I got to the end and hour later, I forgot to go check to see if I had to argue. Maybe IMNA has it right. I would have liked to know right then.
You can’t put 2200 people on 40k worth of road and send the fastest people out last and not allow some leniency in the draft zone. Something has to give.
With all due respect, I think the real problem in these races and as you know this is the same problem in the big IM races is too many people in too short a time on too little road. From time to time, the road get’s clogged up with riders.
I am interested in seeing what GTG can do, but my sense is that it’s a philosophical difference and an acceptence of what I said above - that this WILL happen on certain parts of the course. USTF and other bodies took a different philisophical approach, or so I can tell - swoop in hand out tons of drafting calls and hope that this will solve the problem. The problem is despite the USTF doing this for years, the in-advertant drafting from having too many people in too short a time on too little road, is not going away. In a 2,000+ person event it’s a problem that’s here to stay.
imho…if global and affiliated RD’s are training course marshals to use common sense and look at the big picture when handling penalties or warnings…they automatically take the upper hand. this is, or should be, a fluid process.
the problem is not the rules or the penalties directly. *and *it has always been less of who is doing it, but rather, do they really know what they are doing, and why?
it is rarely the marshal’s or official’s fault for handing out penalties when they are doing so according to their training.
if a marshal hits riders at the rear of a pack which is created by blocking…by handing out drafting penalties and ignores the blocking… that’s doing everyone a favor and creating good will eh?
Come to think of it, my course talk at NYC did not have a single mention of infractions and penalties. Given how many first-timers were probably out there, five minutes devoted to these issues might have relieved some of the problems. I was in the first of the male waves, so the bike course was not nearly as crowded as it was for all of the masses who followed later. It seems as if there was an oversight or two here.
My point is that it has less to do about the offciating and more to do with the space, time and physics of the numbers of people on the road. This has been debated to death. In a big IM race, with 2000+ people, any race offcial, if they are absolutly sticking to the rules could probably hand out penalties and/or DQ over half the entire race field if they stood on the road between the 5K and 10K points of the bike course. I am not sure who would gain from this, but luckily, this is not happening, so clearly their is some discretion going on out there on the part of race offcials on race day. I have not read through all the rules but it seems to me that the tenor of the GTG is that they want the offcials to use more discretion under these circumstances. Why? My guess is that the obvious and real way to reduce the problem is to significantly reduce the size of the field. This was not an issue when IM race fields where less than 1000 people 15 years ago. That’s NOT going to happen, so my guess is they have taken another tack.
sounds like we are heading in the same direction…however…i was relating specifically back to one_lap’s dilemma.
why should anyone being delayed or held up by blocking get hit for drafting, while those creating the blockade are not dealt with? break it up…don’t kill it off.
we’re gonna have increasing problems with congestion as races increase available slots without improved separation of waves, significantly improved participant education, and even more focused and deliberate course marshalling, to say nothing of utilizing a bike route which can safely accomodate everyone. so sure, it is gonna be a tougher job marshalling a course when the RD sold 400 more slots than the course has room for. that’s another whole issue regarding sanctioning (and whether we return to an oversold event) rather than marshalling what is there to deal with.
the rules are indeed there for a reason. but please don’t make peter pay when paul had his hand in the cookie jar first.
I’m not sure those 400 extra spots mattered. That theortically brought the numbers to 2412, but only something like 1863 finished. So, is the course “large” enough to accomodate even 1800 people? I really am just asking here. As I said above I was in the first male wave, so I didn’t have the same sense of overcrowding that was experienced by the later waves. What do you figure is a reasonable number for that bike course?
Agreed, it’s a mess and their are no easy solutions.
I had a good laugh in a triathlon a few years ago when I was taking part as part of a realy team. The relay teams left in the last wave. I am an OK cyclist, so I was passing a LOT of people during the bike ride, to the point I was getting horse after about 10K from, “shouting on your left”. The congestion on the course never really let up in this race with 1500 people entered. For my own safty and expediancy I was riding on the left quite a bit. At about the 20K mark a race offcial pulls up beside me and gives me a warning for “Blocking” . I said to him, you find me a place to pull into on the right, with people going my speed and I will gladly pull in. He shugged his shoulders, smiled and moved on. He knew that I had a point. Again, this was one of these situations where out on the road, the race rules where asking me( or anyone else) to do something ( ride on the right) that was next to impossible to achieve, at that time.
Maybe there should be a color badging system identifying those that are recreational/just trying to finish athletes from the pro/competitor athletes. The marshalls could spend more time watching the athletes who, by identifying themselves as competitors, come under more scrutiny. ???
Crowded races are just that, and a fact of life in the big races. I think in all cases USAT or GTG its a question of the quality of the training of referees. Well trained referees recognize blocking and position penalties as more prevalent than drafting. The biggest issue that will affect the quality of the races in the future is the discretion of the referees. Of note is that is associated with WTC is promoting strongly the idea that GTG will be better, somehow wiser, kinder and gentler.
If the conduct was as discribed a well USAT officiated race would have penalized the blocking person, not you. And you had a chance to contest the penalty…in which case the referee would have to demonstrate adequate documention and the penalty might likely have been thrown out. You would not be able to contest the GTG penalty. In the GTG race either there would have been a verbal warning or you would have been pulled over with no chance to appeal.
But the greater issue to consider in the warning model – especially in crowded fields…The question that is always put before any kind of referee is “When do you simply give a warning versus actually give a penalty?” Is it based on presumed “intention” of the athlete (as percieved by the referee). Is it based on the liklihood of affecting the outcomes of the race? (and if it is likely to affect the outcome do you not penalize because you’d be responsible? or enforce more stringently). The outcome is that the GTG referees must create a subjective different standard of enforcement for different classes of athletes based upon the perceive competitiveness of the athlete.
I am not opposed neccesarily to the idea…don’t get me wrong…but you’ll need professionally trained and skillful referees to determine competetiveness or athlete intention (spot the incorrigable athletes Basketball referees are given a great deal of discretion. And we have all seen the difference between a well officated game versus a badly officiated game. I think races with a lot of drafting ruin it for everybody. I’ve been in IM’s that were notoriously lax and its pretty disheartening to watch pace trains roll by as I am struggling.
I think USAT will learn from the debate and possibly change strident enforcement, I think GTG will also learn some of the less obvious chellenges to officiating a fair race. Ultimately my personal wish is that all camps work hard to create consistent professional quality officiating that the athletes can count on to produce a fair race. Train them well, pay them for the work. I’d like to actually see a soccer card strategy – flash a yellow card so you know whether you need to pay attention at the end and form a protest. I’d also like to see the pre-race meetings that include a clear, consistent indication of the rules that will be enforced.
no clue…haven’t done that one. my point in that area is that if it seems overcrowded…it probably is, and should be a factor in deciding whether to return with $ in hand for registration the following year. it should also be an issue reviewed as part of sanctioning…cough/cough.
but in all fairness to any RD…if it seems like there is an issue with an event being oversold…say something. too often, RD’s are so close to the forest yada yada yada. and surprise…some RD’s don’t race, and have never completed an event, so they aren’t always sure what is good and what is questionable. as a community…we need to talk with them about the good and bad and if there is no apparent move to solve “our” issues…vote with our feet.
RD’s need to be reviewing everything all the time. i’ve heard of a couple who randomly ask participants to objectively rate a laundry list of items with instructions to be brutally honest, and then follow up with an announcement or series of same informing all participants how noted issues are being handled. there is an RD who gets it.
It’s a bit of a mess, but this is what must be known:
Know that at certain times and in certain places in large races there will be too many people in too short a time on too small a section of road.
Know that the vast majority of triathletes do follow and respect the rules of the road
Know that there is a small percantage of triathletes who will draft and break other rules to gain an advantage
Know that there is a fast growing group of people taking part in races who could care less about the drafting rules, not to gain advantage, just that they are out there for a long day, and hey, here’s a nice group of people to ride along with the share the joy and the pain with! DQ these folks if you must( not sure what is gained fromk this), but over the long term this will not be good PR for that race or the sport.
First of all, congratulations on your race and bike split. I went 1:10 and that’s with my damn chain falling off 200 yards from the Gun Hill Road turnaround (my fault for slamming down my bar end shifter).
You make many good points, but I am not so certain that it’s the absolute number of entrants in a race, as it is the fact that so many people have very poor bike handling skills and virtually no road awareness. I lost count of how many times I called out “Coming up on your left”, “Hold you line”, etc. with absolutely no reponse from the person ahead of me. Accordingly, what the ref sees as “drafting” is some clueless wonder completely unaware of what’s going on around him. In fact, just at the start of the long descent down to the bottom of the climb to the turnaround, there was a group of three riders in assorted colors who clearly were in the race for fun, not time (which is fine). However, as me and another competitor started accelerating down the slope and called out " on your left", one of the guys actually aggressively swerves LEFT! As I came up on him I said, “Man, you gotta look and listen before you swerve like that.” His response was “chill out dude”. Uh, were we racing or was it just me?? Furthermore, except for a few occassional spots, there was little room to keep right without getting backed up behind the slower riders.
Sorry for the rant and digression, but I think that the NYC bike course exacerbates the problem experienced at many races. Even though they shut down the entire N-bound side of the WSH, there are plenty of choke points where it just gets too narrow for all the riders. I spent more time than I should have passing people on the left hand side of the cones because it simply wasn’t safe to pass on the righthand side. I know I shouldn’t have done this, but I figured either someone would flag me for leaving the lane or they would flag me for drafting (which, like you, I wasn’t). Fortunately, I did not receive a penalty.
It’s a shame that you got flagged because I thought on several occassions during the ride that there weren’t that many referee vehicles on the course. You’ll have better luck at your next race.
My first thought was that this makes a lot of sense. Fleck 4th point above basically speaks to this issue that some people just want to have a fun day.
A complication in the “colour badge” system might be dealing with a “competitor” who is fouled by a “recreational” athlete. An example might be a group of recreational athletes blocking and forcing a competing athlete across the centreline. I’m sure there are other simple examples that could easily be envisioned.
Still, I like the idea that marshalls pay attention to those who are vying for prizes or spots.
“Still, I like the idea that marshalls pay attention to those who are vying for prizes or spots.”
I don’t want to put words in anyones mouth, but if you read between the lines and get the real drift of what the GTG is trying to do - that’s it: Make the people who are really racing, play by the rules with an enforcment system that works out on the road( the stand-down) and let the people who are out there for fun, well, we’ll just leave them alone and maybe warn them every now and then that they need to break things up a bit. Quite frankly, I think that the WTC/IMNA was getting tired of having to deal with a slew of athletes who were clearly in category #4 of my previous post, getting big penalties and DQ’d from their races. Say want you want about it, but it was not good PR or customer service, if you can call it that. I am not sure I see the point of handing out a DQ to a 15:35 IM finisher who was really there all along just to finish.
Something else that has be touched upon here is the calling of “ON YOUR LEFT”. Now couple that with the idea that some people are just out for a fun, friendly day and/or and introduction to the sport.
Penalties and DQ’s might leave the more experienced racers disenchanted.
Penalties, DQ’s and “competative” athletes screaming like arrogant a–holes at “recreational” athletes on the course could really turn people away from the sport. And it’s at odds with the generally relaxed atmosphere before and after races. It’s also at odds with the notion of “how cool to be in the same race as the Molinas, Whitfields, Bentleys, DeBooms, …”
While a much slower rider than one_lap, I completely understand your feelings on your penalty. There were definitely times on that course where there was no way to get to the right after passing someone, even if you weren’t going that fast. I’m sure some of the folks that went flying past me (of which there were many) were probably pushing the envelope and drafting a bit, but I didn’t really see too much blatant cheating. What I did see was a fair number of people who seemed to take it personally when passed and were resistant to moving to their left when being asked/directed to do so and some horrible bike handling. On one particular descent, I remember praying that one of the TNT’er’s in front of me didn’t swerve to the left for no apparent reason again and kill me while trying to get back to the right so that other people could pass, which at times was impossible. I feel like they almost needed to make the coned off center lane a passing lane on the downhills, much like they do on the highways - both blocking and drafting were impossible not to do on that course. FWIW from the backpacker’s perspective!
Well this is where we get onto a slippery slope - How do you make that differentiation? How do you sperate them so that they don’t overlap during the race, but at the same time retain that we’re-all-in-the-same-race feel?
Clearly, the people going for the absolute tops spots( 1, 2, 3) are “competitive”. However, I was at a race on the weekend were the race for 1, 2, 3 overall was a bit of a sleeper and the most “competitive” race was in the men’s 55-59 age-group. These guys would have been out on the course mixing it up with “recreational” athletes in say the 25 -29 age-group.
As I have said, we now find ourselves in a bit of a mess in this sport, with no real easy answers. Ruthless, rule enforcment does not work and filed sizes are not going to get smaller.
Basketball referees are given a great deal of discretion. And we have all seen the difference between a well officated game versus a badly officiated game. I think races with a lot of drafting ruin it for everybody. I’ve been in IM’s that were notoriously lax and its pretty disheartening to watch pace trains roll by as I am struggling.