Get faster in the swim and carry extra upper body weight that slows you down on the run Get faster on the bike and carry extra quad and glute mass that slows you down on the run Get totally ripped for the run, but lose upper body strength for the swim and quad mass for the bike
The best kind of training for the bike and swim won’t necessarily lead to hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is an adaptation to training stress (strain?) that requires the exertion of large force for short periods of time, which doesn’t occur in swimming, biking or running in triathlons. If you really get faster on the bike (read: higher sustained power), you will have done so through a gain in mitochondria and capillarization, not hypertrophy. Look at Janet Evans: she didn’t exactly carry around extra upper body weight, did she?
Dr. Day wrote: Ride more, run less, get faster and avoid injury.
That’s my mantra for this winter. PC-ing myself back to health and, hopefully, better performance. Time will tell! I am certainly glad I have this option, and option that got me through achilles tendonitis many years ago…and I came out of that problem with a PR the first 1/2 marathon I ran. Followed it with my best year of triathlon and duathlon performance. It works for me, that’s all I really care about.
That’s exactly contradictory to the advice of possibly the fastest IM age grouper who posts regularly on this forum. He states that he has focused primarily on his run in recent years, and his results are extraordinary (USAT ranking in the mid 90s). Maybe he’s BSing me because he’s worried I’ll beat him some day, but I don’t think so…
It’s refreshing to see that you acknowledge that there are other factors at play that are far more likely to account for your improvement (like 19 races this year!) than are the brief use of PCs. That’s the problem with studies of size 1…
Ken,
What about when you have multiple studies of one which have similar results? At what point do they become significant?
Also, I am curious about your postings to the PC threads. What is your motivation? If you think PC’s are a hoax, can’t you just ignore the threads?
Obviously you have some sort of intrest in the product. It’s off season, so why don’t you take Frank up on his 90 day guarantee, put a pair on your trainer and report back to us with YOUR study of 1? 
Later,
Mike
It’s refreshing to see that you acknowledge that there are other factors at play that are far more likely to account for your improvement (like 19 races this year!) than are the brief use of PCs. That’s the problem with studies of size 1…
Ken,
What about when you have multiple studies of one which have similar results? At what point do they become significant?
Also, I am curious about your postings to the PC threads. What is your motivation? If you think PC’s are a hoax, can’t you just ignore the threads?
Obviously you have some sort of intrest in the product. It’s off season, so why don’t you take Frank up on his 90 day guarantee, put a pair on your trainer and report back to us with YOUR study of 1?
Later,
Mike
How many claims of alien abduction do you need to hear before they are significant?
Should I (or anyone) ignore threads in which incorrect or dubious claims are made? I don’t give a rat’s ass how people train. I’d prefer that people make informed decisions about products or methods, just because I think that an educated population is better than a non-educated one. Like the over-emphasis on the importance of weight in cycling (especially rotating weight!), or the misinformation about what weightlifting will do, etc.
The thing about PCs that irks me has been the ridiculous claims made by Frank (“40% improvement in power!”). Like Armstrong was gonna go from 400W to 560W. He consistently refused to acknowledge that that claim was bogus in all situations other than that of the untrained user. He also says that Armstrong actually used them (his not-so-veiled reference to a TdF winner using them; I don’t think it was Pantani or Ullrich…), without any kind of corroboration.
I have no interest in the product (call it a non-interest, if you will).
Off-season? I’ve already started my training for next season. 10 mile run at better than 1/2 IM pace on Saturday. 2000yd main set in the pool on Sunday morning at better than 1/2 IM pace; 44 miles at 1/2 IM power on the bike Sunday afternoon. No PCs, no weights, no “easy rides” on my schedule from now until June. JFT.
Again, I have NEVER said the PC’s have done anything. I just has given data as to what I have done. After a year with data, then maybe I can say something. But, sure seems like there is NO reason not to give it a try. I need all the help I can get.
And I again am totally honest and just again ask, why do folks have opinions on things they have NEVER tried? I do not care if it is PCs, more aero bit fit, race wheels, etc.?
Dave
Again, I have NEVER said the PC’s have done anything. I just has given data as to what I have done. After a year with data, then maybe I can say something. But, sure seems like there is NO reason not to give it a try. I need all the help I can get.
And I again am totally honest and just again ask, why do folks have opinions on things they have NEVER tried? I do not care if it is PCs, more aero bit fit, race wheels, etc.?
Dave
I have never tried heroin, but I have reason to believe it is highly addictive and bad for health, based on the scientific literature.
You have now at least twice made postings in which you explicitly linked your brief use of PCs to your improved performance. You didn’t say “I took two months off before last year’s race and I set a PR this year after doing 19 races, so might more training have something to do with it?”.
Ken wrote: That’s exactly contradictory to the advice of possibly the fastest IM age grouper who posts regularly on this forum. He states that he has focused primarily on his run in recent years, and his results are extraordinary (USAT ranking in the mid 90s). Maybe he’s BSing me because he’s worried I’ll beat him some day, but I don’t think so…
Ken, I don’t doubt that I’ll ever get fast enough to even train with either of you on your slow days. Apparently, for some reason(s) (weigh too much from weight lifting? past injuries? incorrect technique? genetics?), I don’t seem to be able to increase my running mileage much more than 20 miles a week. I know, I know, that’s not much. Part of the injury problems began to surface as I worked to get away from heel striking many years ago. I thought I had the injuries behind me back in the 90’s as I found the Asics Kayano shoe…suddenly, I could run longer without hurting anywhere. Well, it hasn’t worked out as good as I thought. I actually have run mostly on dirt roads the past couple of years…still injuries crop up. Here’s the latest: I was planning on an easy 1 hour run a few days ago…turned the first mile in 8:15, just like I planned…I feel I could run this speed for hours. Then, I noticed I was really floating along with very little effort and was amazed I felt so good. I thought, good, this extra running I’ve been doing is working! Within three steps I stopped. Bad cramp-pull in my lower leg. It has to be the soleus…people don’t injure the soleus that often, do they? Well, at least it’s in a new spot that I don’t recall injuring before. Had to limp home 1.5 miles. Looked back at my mileage the past couple of weeks, and, yep, averaged just over 20 miles.
I certainly WISH I could run more, I think it would be great to do so. I have no doubt that you and Joe (or whomever you are referring to) do wonderful things partly because of your run mileage. But, I’m not you. Nor Joe. I’m a guy grateful to have the option of PC’s. From here on out, I may not run more than 5-10 miles a week, except in longer races, if that’s what it takes to stay injury-free.
We’ll see if I jump back onto the podium in the races I do next year…it’s what happened last time I did a lot of PC work. IF I DON’T improve this time, it might indicate PC training wasn’t responsible for my first giant leap in performance. IF I DO accomplish a repeat performance enhancement, it might indicate PC training is, indeed, a key to my better performance. Time will tell.
Ken, I don’t doubt that I’ll ever get fast enough to even train with either of you on your slow days. Apparently, for some reason(s) (weigh too much from weight lifting? past injuries? incorrect technique? genetics?), I don’t seem to be able to increase my running mileage much more than 20 miles a week. I know, I know, that’s not much. Part of the injury problems began to surface as I worked to get away from heel striking many years ago. I thought I had the injuries behind me back in the 90’s as I found the Asics Kayano shoe…suddenly, I could run longer without hurting anywhere. Well, it hasn’t worked out as good as I thought. I actually have run mostly on dirt roads the past couple of years…still injuries crop up. Here’s the latest: I was planning on an easy 1 hour run a few days ago…turned the first mile in 8:15, just like I planned…I feel I could run this speed for hours. Then, I noticed I was really floating along with very little effort and was amazed I felt so good. I thought, good, this extra running I’ve been doing is working! Within three steps I stopped. Bad cramp-pull in my lower leg. It has to be the soleus…people don’t injure the soleus that often, do they? Well, at least it’s in a new spot that I don’t recall injuring before. Had to limp home 1.5 miles. Looked back at my mileage the past couple of weeks, and, yep, averaged just over 20 miles.
I certainly WISH I could run more, I think it would be great to do so. I have no doubt that you and Joe (or whomever you are referring to) do wonderful things partly because of your run mileage. But, I’m not you. Nor Joe. I’m a guy grateful to have the option of PC’s. From here on out, I may not run more than 5-10 miles a week, except in longer races, if that’s what it takes to stay injury-free.
We’ll see if I jump back onto the podium in the races I do next year…it’s what happened last time I did a lot of PC work. IF I DON’T improve this time, it might indicate PC training wasn’t responsible for my first giant leap in performance. IF I DO accomplish a repeat performance enhancement, it might indicate PC training is, indeed, a key to my better performance. Time will tell.
(for the record, the guy I cited is far, far faster than am I. At the last sprint triathlon we both did, his bike split was ~15% faster than mine)
I feel for you with your injury problems, I really do. In 2005, I only ran more than 20 miles in a week about 3-4 times (and maxed at 30); the most I’ve ever run in a week was under 35, I think. I plan on increasing to 30-35/week this year. I’m fortunate to have gotten what seems to be reasonable running form in college, learning from the sprinters, so as to avoid most (but not all) injuries. Have you ever had a coach examine your running form? How’s your weight and flexibility? I also wonder what would happen if you spun on your bike for 15 minutes before running.
Good luck to you. Do whatever you think you have to do to achieve your goals.
Ken, appreciate the well-wishes. If you plan on upping your mileage, be VERY wary of any sore spots that might occur. Us old guys need to be healthy!
I’m 185, just more muscular than I need to be for triathlon. Maybe that extra 15 lbs is contributing to the injuries.
Ken, I don’t see too many world class swimmers that look like Kenyan marathoners, so while I agree with your point, you can’t deny that if you did zero upper body exercise, and dropped 5-10 lbs of muscle upstairs your run WILL get faster. I’m not talking hypertrophy here, just a bit of basic mass required to pull through the swim. I know that there are many who put on zero additional leg mass when they bike tons, and keep their runner leg “muscle form”, but I guess that is not me. All I have to do is look at a bike or weights and my legs start to get bigger :-). Realistically, I think most people will agree that they put on a bit more quad mass in the legs when they ride. Sure, your tour de France climbers won’t, but if you are riding 6 hours per day at 40 kph, no one is about to put on any mass…not even Jan Ullrich.
Finally, I am just wondering if you have ever tried PC’s. While H20FUN is a three week sample of one, I’m a three year sample of one and my bike times have come down on average at all distances. Perhaps a wild coincidence driven by placebo affect, but if that is the only reason, that is good enough.
Why don’t you take Mr. Day up on the 90 day money back trial ?
Dev,
What effect, if any, do you think PC’s have on your run?
Thanks,
Mike
Ken, appreciate the well-wishes. If you plan on upping your mileage, be VERY wary of any sore spots that might occur. Us old guys need to be healthy!
I’m 185, just more muscular than I need to be for triathlon. Maybe that extra 15 lbs is contributing to the injuries.
When I peaked at 198 pounds, I chose to not run until my weight dropped a lot. I only biked that year, I believe. The following year, having dropped to 172 (then back up to about 178 that winter), I added running and got back into multi-sport.
I did 10+ rolling miles on Saturday at about 6:50 pace without complaint from the legs, so I think I’m okay. Vigilance, as you say, is important.
Ken, at least I know your position on PC’s.
Answer me this one question. Do you do one legged drills on your bike training. If so, why? If you do, why are you so against PC’s which do the same thing with both legs at one time and while one is doing regular training?
So, you like beating up on a product you have never used. Of course, that is your choice. Do I take any mfgs PR as total truth. Of course not. But, I sure have more respect for folks who are willing to try new ideas, assuming one can not get hurt by them, than someone who enjoys telling folks they are wrong when they are not open minded enough to try and give first hand comments.
Just my values.
Dave
Ken, at least I know your position on PC’s.
Answer me this one question. Do you do one legged drills on your bike training. If so, why? If you do, why are you so against PC’s which do the same thing with both legs at one time and while one is doing regular training?
So, you like beating up on a product you have never used. Of course, that is your choice. Do I take any mfgs PR as total truth. Of course not. But, I sure have more respect for folks who are willing to try new ideas, assuming one can not get hurt by them, than someone who enjoys telling folks they are wrong when they are not open minded enough to try and give first hand comments.
Just my values.
Dave
I do not do one legged drills in my bike training. I am a firm believer in specificity. As I rarely do one legged pedaling in races, I don’t see the value in training my muscles to do that.
I do not like beating up on PCs.
I’m not so sure that my using PCs will not hurt me or my training. I have limited time to train (both in terms of hours per week and years per life remaining), so I choose to do the training that I understand to be proven effective. I have pretty strong hip flexors from years of soccer, running hurdles, high/long/triple jumping and related sprint efforts, so even if developing stronger hip flexors was relevant, it probably wouldn’t help me much.
(edit)
I have observed debates between Frank Day and others whose expertise goes beyond his, and I always found Mr. Day’s arguments wanting. Life is too short for me to try everything suggested. At some point, I listen to others whose arguments I find compelling, rather than try everything out myself. As is the case with weight lifting.
Should I (or anyone) ignore threads in which incorrect or dubious claims are made? I don’t give a rat’s ass how people train. I’d prefer that people make informed decisions about products or methods, just because I think that an educated population is better than a non-educated one. Like the over-emphasis on the importance of weight in cycling (especially rotating weight!), or the misinformation about what weightlifting will do, etc.
The thing about PCs that irks me has been the ridiculous claims made by Frank (“40% improvement in power!”). Like Armstrong was gonna go from 400W to 560W. He consistently refused to acknowledge that that claim was bogus in all situations other than that of the untrained user. He also says that Armstrong actually used them (his not-so-veiled reference to a TdF winner using them; I don’t think it was Pantani or Ullrich…), without any kind of corroboration.
I have no interest in the product (call it a non-interest, if you will).
How to respond to your post? I will do my best.
Clearly you have not read my claims closely. If you had you would see that the 40% power improvement is for the typical new user (the typeical new user is not considered to be an elite), and that it will take them 6-9 months of exclusive use to get there. This claim was first based upon a small study I did of beta users but it has been verified, at least to me, by countless reports by users. A 40% increase in power equates to a 2-3 mph speed improvement in most users. While some users see less improvement others have reported more, the most being a 5 mph improvement in six months (from 20 to 25 mph - thats a 95% increase in power!) by Joe Skufka, who has posted those results here. Elites tend to see about 25% power improvements (some see more some see less).
One thing that every new user can count on is that they will be happy with the improvement they see (or are seeing in 3 months), whatever it is (be it in running, cycling, or both), or they can send them back and get their money back.
Elites will not see quite the improvement that “ordinary” folks will see because their technique is probably already better than average. As Greg LeMond told me when we were talking about the cranks many years ago, something to the effect: “I spent years trying to learn how to pedal this way, now people can learn it in months”. Most new users have not spent minutes, let alone years, trying to improve cycling (or running) technique. If they have, they probably have less to gain (something similar to Phil Holman’s improvements, a masters track cyclist who improved his top speed in 7 months from 35 to 38 mph, winning a medal at worlds, an approximate 25% power improvement)
If you believe my claim is bogus why don’t you gather a little data to try to prove it so. It would be easy to do right here. Take a little pole of the PC users here (at least those who have used them exclusively for 6-9 months) and see how much they have improved. If my claims are bogus it seems we won’t see many 2-3 mph speed improvements. If they are reasonable we will. And, that doesn’t even count for the running improvement claims. It ain’t scientific, but it is better data than you have now, which is nothing, colored by bias.
Good luck next year, whether you train on PC’s or not.
Cheers
Frank
Elites tend to see about 25% power improvements (some see more some see less).
Bull. You will not find a single “elite” rider who will develop a 25% increase in power, if you are using threshold power as the definition of power. I doubt that there is a 25% difference in threshold power among the top TTers in the world; a 25% improvement would make any of them unbeatable.
Of course, I’m assuming that “elite” means more than “better than MOP in a triathlon”.
That’s exactly contradictory to the advice of possibly the fastest IM age grouper who posts regularly on this forum. He states that he has focused primarily on his run in recent years, and his results are extraordinary (USAT ranking in the mid 90s). Maybe he’s BSing me because he’s worried I’ll beat him some day, but I don’t think so…
My advice is for PC’ers. If one is not on PC’s then it will require running to get faster in running. If one is on PC’s it does not (at least not a lot of running). Of course, you don’t know about this as you (and your friend apparently) don’t have a clue as to what they are. If one is planning on running more to run faster, better hope one avoids injury, as this plan will only work if one avoids injury. Just ask Titan or Steve Larsen and many many others.
That’s exactly contradictory to the advice of possibly the fastest IM age grouper who posts regularly on this forum. He states that he has focused primarily on his run in recent years, and his results are extraordinary (USAT ranking in the mid 90s). Maybe he’s BSing me because he’s worried I’ll beat him some day, but I don’t think so…
My advice is for PC’ers. If one is not on PC’s then it will require running to get faster in running. If one is on PC’s it does not (at least not a lot of running). Of course, you don’t know about this as you (and your friend apparently) don’t have a clue as to what they are. If one is planning on running more to run faster, better hope one avoids injury, as this plan will only work if one avoids injury. Just ask Titan or Steve Larsen and many many others.
I gotta love your web site. Here’s a snippet from your Reviews:
“The use of these cranks… by top riders is another sign of the influence that Armstrong’s Tour domination with his calculated, scientific approach is having on the peloton.”
Here’s the actual quote:
“The use of these cranks, chainrings, and telemetric power-measuring systems by top riders is another sign of the influence that Armstrong’s Tour domination with his calculated, scientific approach is having on the peloton. Coaches and teams now try new things looking for an edge, rather than sticking to the old-school traditions from the days of Eddy Merckx, as they were far more prone to do ten years ago. Now you find a strange American product, the Power Crank system, on Garzelli’s bike, and strange chainrings on the bikes of other top riders, something that old-school coaches, who would have been listened to not long ago, would resist.”
Can you point out to us any independent validation that people like Garzelli, Armstrong and Leipheimer actively use(d) PCs? You know, like a quote from Levi saying “I used PCs as an integral part of my training”.
I have never tried heroin, but I have reason to believe it is highly addictive and bad for health, based on the scientific literature.
While you may “have reason to believe” heroin is “highly addictive and bad for health” it is not based upon the scientific literature. Opioids are not “highly addictive” but they do have addictive potential, usually in people with adictive personalities). Heroin is no different in addictive potential than any other opioid, and similar in addictive potential to legal substances such as alcohol. Further, opioids have no toxic effects on the body at any dose (they are used in very high doses during surgery for general anesthesia - I know, as an anesthesiologist I gave a lot of them during surgery, usually the drug of choice for the most crically ill patients). Opioids can be administered to most patients for extended periods of time to treat chonic pain without addicition ever occuring. I know, I also specialized in the treatment of chronic pain and have first hand experience doing so and am very familiar with the scientific literature.
Most drug overdose deaths you hear about occur because of combinations of drugs, including alcohol, even though the opioid gets blamed. Pain kiillers such as aspirin and tylenol are much more toxic and account for many more overdose deaths per year than all opioids ocmbined.
Opioids are illegal, not for any sound medical reason, but because they are not the addictive drug of choice of those in power (they prefer alcohol) and by demonizing something like this to protect the children gets them elected.
So, I am afraid, just like your thoughts on the PC’s, your thoughts on drugs are not based on any good data. Sorry.
Can you point out to us any independent validation that people like Garzelli, Armstrong and Leipheimer actively use(d) PCs? You know, like a quote from Levi saying “I used PCs as an integral part of my training”.
How about the picture of Garzelli’s bike on the Velonews web site during the tour with PC’s on it, that he rode on the rest day. OK, I guess that isn’t proof he integrates them into his training as it was a rest day, not a training day.
Probably 20 people have told us Lance has trained with PC’s, although we don’t have proof. Although PC’s would be one way to account for that 8% pedaling efficiency improvement documented through the years by Coyle that doesn’t require Lance to have changed fiber type in his legs. I don’t think it matters anymore as so many other elite cyclists do.
Sorry I don’t have a quote from Levi on the web site but how about the telephone conversation I had with Levi a couple of weeks ago when he called to get another pair and we were talking about business and I said “if only we could get Lance to fess up” and he told me he asked Lance point blank if he trained with PC’s and he said his answer was so quick and so “never heard of them” he knew he did, and “all you need do is watch him pedal and it is clear”, sez Levi to me, or was it a Levi imposter? Of course, I don’t have proof it was really Levi on the phone, at least to your proof requirements, I am sure. I did ask Levi when he was going back to Europe and he said not until after the Tour of California. So if you see him there, why don’t you ask him?
Frank