Is it possible to do over 100 TSS in one hour? My initial thought was that it is not possible by definition.
However, a sprint duathlon event I recently did caused me to reconsider. If the race is 60 minutes long, with about 30’ on the bike, and 30’ of running (split between two runs). The runs can be completed above threshold pace. And (theoretically at least), the bike leg could be done at FTP or above.
What am I missing here?
Don’t think it makes any sense to combine TSS and “rTSS”
.
Don’t think it makes any sense to combine TSS and “rTSS”
I’d bet $$$$$$$$ that Andy Coggan would agree with you.
Hugh
Maybe, but not much above 100. Many of the same limiters apply.
That’s like saying if you train 10 hours in a week, you can’t go over 1000TSS.
It’s 3 separate workouts, but with minimal rest or residual fatigue between them. You can’t look at it that same was as a single discipline, single session.
The reason to combine all 3 is to track overall CTL/TSB and rate at which you increase training load over a period of time to stay within certain limits that you might set. It tracks overall energy systems and overall overreaching/over training limits if you know what yours are.
Example, if you building up your run, even if you bike training is stagnant, you will notice your freshness feels like your bike TSB is going down when it’s not. Swimming will just add more systemic over training symptoms of general fatigue, not acute fatigue. So it’s worth training it as well.
Is it possible to do over 100 TSS in one hour? My initial thought was that it is not possible by definition.
Your understanding is incorrect. The definition does not preclude it.
Is it possible to do over 100 TSS in one hour? My initial thought was that it is not possible by definition.
given the current definition it isn’t even possible to do exactly 100 in one hour
anyway what you are missing is that the black art of tss turns into complete voodoo when you try to mix more than cycling into it.
First, TSS = NP x duration x IF / (FTP x 60 min).
Second, google “tss cycling” and this link comes up first: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-tss
…on which is stated: “You earn 100 TSS for an all out, 100%, 60-minute workout. Of course most workouts are not completed at 100%, so most workouts will accumulate less than 100 TSS per hour.”
This passage makes sense when the following definition of FTP is used: “FTP is the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state for approximately one hour before fatiguing.” [Allen & Coggan. Training and Racing with a Power Meter, 2nd ed., p.124)
However, I believe Coggan emphasizes that the definition of FTP is the power for a 40-km TT. Based on this definition of FTP, if your 40-km TT is less than one hour, you can accumulate more than 100 TSS points per hour. If not, then you can’t.
Mixing bike & run TSS makes little sense.
So who’s right, you or RChung?
Edit: Seems like RChung is right.
TSS?
2 workouts (FTP 270):
WO1: 4x4’@300 Watts 4’ Recovery @100 Watts
WO2: 4x4’@300 Watts 2’ Recovery @100 Watts
WO2 has the higher training stress (everyone who trains, knows that), but WO1 has the higher TSS in my calculation. (I hope I miss something here!)
Anyway, TS wise, a middle distance workout (10x400 on 1 minute recoveries) is much harder, than any aerobe time trial.
Now for TSS (which I am very sceptical about) - to maximise TSS in an hour, you need to maximise NP (as the duration is given). Whether you achieve a higher NP with a constant or somehow fluctuating power output is individual (depening on your anaerobic conditioning).
Current research shows, that a “U-shaped” power output (just over threshold in the beginning, just under threshold in the middle, just over threshold in the end) yields the highes average power output.
So yes, theoretically it is possible, that at a given FTP “criss-crossing” over and under this FTP value would give you a higher NP IF your body recovers during the under parts. Highly individual.
It also comes down to FTP definition, if it is the highest power output, than by definition you can’t generate more, if it is defined for the highest constant poweroutput, than it could be possible.
Constant poweroutput is not the fastest way to timetrial for sure, U-shape is.
Is it possible to do over 100 TSS in one hour? My initial thought was that it is not possible by definition.
given the current definition it isn’t even possible to do exactly 100 in one hour
Not true.
First, TSS = NP x duration x IF / (FTP x 60 min).
Second, google “tss cycling” and this link comes up first: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-tss
…on which is stated: “You earn 100 TSS for an all out, 100%, 60-minute workout. Of course most workouts are not completed at 100%, so most workouts will accumulate less than 100 TSS per hour.”
This passage makes sense when the following definition of FTP is used: “FTP is the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state for approximately one hour before fatiguing.” [Allen & Coggan. Training and Racing with a Power Meter, 2nd ed., p.124)
However, I believe Coggan emphasizes that the definition of FTP is the power for a 40-km TT. Based on this definition of FTP, if your 40-km TT is less than one hour, you can accumulate more than 100 TSS points per hour. If not, then you can’t.
Mixing bike & run TSS makes little sense.
-
Always refer to the original source.
-
40 km power is to FTP as s is to sigma.
-
I don’t believe in adding TSS and rTSS (which is why I developed a USS).
WO1 has the higher TSS and higher training stress because it is longer (32min vs 24min) WO2 feels harder because of less recovery but that is not what TSS is quantifying. RPE for WO2 will be higher but TSS will, correctly, be higher for WO1.
RPE does not equal TSS
Yes and no. If you add up individual workouts it is possible but in your example of a sprint du you would have to incorporate the entire race including transition times. Do that and I’ll bet you are close to, but not over, 100TSS per hour.
RPE does not equal TSS
Well said. As I always tell people, they should judge the accuracy of their TSS based on how they feel on subsequent day(s), not during/immediately after a workout.
RPE does not equal TSS
Well said. As I always tell people, they should judge the accuracy of their TSS based on how they feel on subsequent day(s), not during/immediately after a workout.
So which ride feels harder on the next day:
4x4 @300
4x4 @300
Duration is meaningless if doing less than 40% FTP. I can sit on my bike for 2 hours @125 Watts and feel absolutely NOTHING the next day, it is commuting.
But hard Intervals on short rest will need more recovery than the same intervals on longer rest.
So about the original source. In your Wattage post in early 2003 on TSS & IF, you stated the TSS formula as follows:
The steps required to calculate IF and TSS then become:
…
5) divide the “corrected” power obtained in step 4 by the individual’s power at LT – this decimal value is the IF.
6) multiply the** average power (uncorrected)** for the workout by the duration (in seconds) to obtain the total work performed (in J)
7) multiply the total work by the IF (step) to derive the “raw” TSS
8) divide the “raw” TSS by the amount of work performed in one hour at LT (LT power x 3600 seconds) and multiply by 100 to obtain the final TSS.
Can you please clarify why you later changed AP to NP in the numerator? Effectively TSS = IF^2 x dur/60 min.
Thanks,
Dave
RPE does not equal TSS
Well said. As I always tell people, they should judge the accuracy of their TSS based on how they feel on subsequent day(s), not during/immediately after a workout.
So which ride feels harder on the next day:
4x4 @300
4x4 @300
Duration is meaningless if doing less than 40% FTP. I can sit on my bike for 2 hours @125 Watts and feel absolutely NOTHING the next day, it is commuting.
But hard Intervals on short rest will need more recovery than the same intervals on longer rest.
You’re splitting hairs here. You will likely feel the same the next day. 4x4min at 110% isn’t that hard a workout, both should let you recover the next day. You are talking about 8min or ~5 TSS.
RPE does not equal TSS
Well said. As I always tell people, they should judge the accuracy of their TSS based on how they feel on subsequent day(s), not during/immediately after a workout.
So which ride feels harder on the next day:
4x4 @300
4x4 @300
Duration is meaningless if doing less than 40% FTP. I can sit on my bike for 2 hours @125 Watts and feel absolutely NOTHING the next day, it is commuting.
But hard Intervals on short rest will need more recovery than the same intervals on longer rest.
You’re splitting hairs here. You will likely feel the same the next day. 4x4min at 110% isn’t that hard a workout, both should let you recover the next day. You are talking about 8min or ~5 TSS.
No, this is not splitting hairs, I could make it 10x 4’ the problem remains, TSS is NOT measuring the training stress, because it overemphasizes duration, even if this duration is done at recovery intensities. 2hours @35% FTP is no training stress, repeated intervals on little rest is more stress, than the same intervals an less rest.
So about the original source. In your Wattage post in early 2003 on TSS & IF, you stated the TSS formula as follows:
The steps required to calculate IF and TSS then become:
…
5) divide the “corrected” power obtained in step 4 by the individual’s power at LT – this decimal value is the IF.
6) multiply the** average power (uncorrected)** for the workout by the duration (in seconds) to obtain the total work performed (in J)
7) multiply the total work by the IF (step) to derive the “raw” TSS
8) divide the “raw” TSS by the amount of work performed in one hour at LT (LT power x 3600 seconds) and multiply by 100 to obtain the final TSS.
Can you please clarify why you later changed AP to NP in the numerator? Effectively TSS = IF^2 x dur/60 min.
Thanks,
Dave
If you’d followed along for a few more days/posts, you’d have seen that it was because I’d realized that both the work performed and the intensity at which it was performed needed to be corrected for the impact of variability. As a consequence of this change, the TSS formula can be reduced to the simpler version you wrote last, but that was not the intent.
RPE does not equal TSS
Well said. As I always tell people, they should judge the accuracy of their TSS based on how they feel on subsequent day(s), not during/immediately after a workout.
So which ride feels harder on the next day:
4x4 @300
4x4 @300
My guess is that they’d feel about the same, and the TSS scores would also be roughly similar.
Duration is meaningless if doing less than 40% FTP. I can sit on my bike for 2 hours @125 Watts and feel absolutely NOTHING the next day, it is commuting.
Yes, there is a limited range of intensities over which TSS works reasonably well.
But hard Intervals on short rest will need more recovery than the same intervals on longer rest.
I don’t think so. Indeed, if anything stretching out the recovery periods too much can make it recovery more difficult.