The proliferation of triathlon bike fitters

Triathlon Forum
1

Well, I have considered posting something like this for a while but restrained myself. Until now.

Having just read another thread (one of quite a few on this forum alone) about someone who was apparently (according to their description) incorrectly positioned on their triathlon bike I have to make a few pointed comments.

First, there is a proliferation of persons calling themselves “triathlon bike fitters”. They aren’t. They have minimal instruction/experience- usually enough just to create problems. They seem to have an inability to learn from their mistakes and are trying to cash in on the currently popular growing awareness of correct bike fit.

It pisses me off.

I see people come in our store frequently- every single day last week- with bikes from these “expert triathlon bike fitters” and their positions are very, very and quite obviously poor. I am not talking sublties here- any poster on this forum could have spotted incorrect frame sizes, geometries, poor posture and position, too low saddle heights, too long reach measurements and crappy aerobar fit.

Come on people. Stop getting ripped off. Your new “triathlon bike fitter” doesn’t know what he/she is doing.

How do you spot a rotten fitter who is just a poser? How do you sort out the “Johnny come lately” new expert bike fitter? well, this is just a rough guide of questions to consider when you shopping for bike shops and fitters:

  1. How many years has the fitter been doing triathlon SPECIFIC bike fits?
  2. What are the names of the local triathletes they have fit? Have you talked with those local athletes about their experience with the fitter?
  3. How many triathlon specific bike fits has the fitter done?
  4. How many triathlons has the bike fitter themselves done? What is the their involvement in the sport of triathlon? NOTE: There are fine fitters who are not triathletes- but these people have been in the industry for years and have been going to the top races for years and understand what unique demands are placed on triathletes of all levels, especially beginners who need fit services the most. While extensive triathlon experience is desireable, it is not mandatory to be a good fitter.
  5. How many triathlon bike brands has the bike fitter worked with? (he/she should have extensive experience with them ALL).

I am amazed at some of what I am seeing lately. And it puts me in an awkward position when we have to tell the customer “Your bike does not fit you correctly and you are not positioned correctly…” They often think it is just a veiled attempt on their part to “convert” them to Tomism or into being Bikesport customer. It isn’t. Any fairly intelligent observer could look at their fit and position and say "That does not look comfortable/right.

When shopping for a bike fitter, Caveat Emptor: Let the buyer beware. There are a lot of phonies out there pedalling jargon and theater as bike fit.

2

I don’t doubt your point, Tom. But, how do you eye-ball judge whether a fit is good or not (subtle changes, not a gross problem)? To me, fit is a combination of (and trade-off among) power, aerodynamics, and comfort. I could have several “correct” fits depending on what I was trying to optimize. And I’m pretty sure there is no reliable method to quantify the “amount” of any of those 3 parameters, so whether they are optimized in sum or not is somewhat speculative. Would 3 “fitters” at your very own shop set up 3 different “fits?”

When people walk out of your shop (or whomever’s), their fit is the way you left it until they start tweaking…maybe I would be more aero if I dropped a spacer out of the headset, maybe I would be more comfortable if I slid my saddle forwared…maybe I want to try a whole new saddle or shoes, and now I have changed “everything.” If the changes achieve the goal, then isn’t that a “better” fit despite it no longer being the fit you gave them? Could somebody on their own “tweak” a fit that you provided and simultaneously both improve the balance of the three parameters above AND wind up with a fit you would call “bad?” (ie, Bjorn) Not trying to be confrontational…just what do you think about “tweaks” done by customers vs. “it’s golden, don’t touch!” My fitting has always been a process done by what feel right to me over weeks and months. If I got a fit from you on a new bike, in my arrogance I would probably consider it a starting point.

3

Valid point Dapper Dan.

I guess if you are willing to pay a fitter or buy your bike from a good fitter but then you radically and substantially modify the fit they gave you, well, that could mean it wasn’t too good to begin with or it could mean the person did not give it enough time to become acclimated to the fit.

There is “Fit by Acclimation” and “Fit by Facilitation”.

With “Fit by Acclimation” you put the customer on the bike, position them correctly according to commonly held technical standards (i.e. those established by Dan Empfield on Slowtwitch, for instance) and say “There…get used to it.”

With “Fit by Facilitation” you put the customer on the trainer, observe where they are telling you (verbally and most importantly, non-verbally) where they want their body to be, and put their body in that orientation.

Neither method is exclusively correct, but some combination of both, different for every customer, is used to properly fit the customer.

For a good fitter, very little “tweaking” should be required by the customer. Maybe the slightest rotation of the aerobars or a very small (less than 4 millimeters) touch of the saddle height. That’s it. If it seems like it needs more either the fitter blew it or the customer is experienceing “Princess and the Pea” syndrome and hasn;t acclimated (or can’t acclimate) to the posture.

It is important to make a distinction between “fit” and “positioning” also. When someone buys a bike from us, we position them as well as fit them.

“Fitting” I define as the process through which appropriate bicycle choices are made based on rider requirements (events, distances, terrain, etc.) and individual body measurements.

“Positioning” I define as the process through which the cyclist in optimally (key word) oriented on the correctly fitted (as above) bicycle to produce a reasonable and optimal relationship of (in order) safety and comfort, power output, aerodynamics.

I hope that answered your question. Basically, if you have to “tweak” it a lot, something isn’t right.

When does a “tweak” become a “re-fit”?

4

Tom, those are are good points, but it isn’t all that easy to find all those qualities you describe in a fitter. I got some PMs from some helpful folks here answering my question about where to find a good bike fitter near me, and it seems that the closest one is a days drive from where I am.

Now, I’m going to get to at least one of those fitters, since I’ll be able to work it into a trip I’m already planning. I’m not sure that I’d take 2 or 3 days just to travel somewhere to get fit for a bike.

In a perfect world. . .

5

Yes Sir,

That is my point exactly. And all hese new guys…

Come on people. Bottom line, where were they in the sport 20 years ago?

6

Um . . . So what should we do? Let’s say I’m unable to get out of the Spokane area for the foreseeable future. How would I go about finding the correct frame, let alone getting fit properly on it? Is there a solution, or would I basically just have to roll the dice?

7

Well, my answer is to make a personal decision about how important it is to you. Then base your decision on how to proceed on that.

I bought an engagement ring for a girl once and travelled far and wide to find the right one, finally ended up in Tiffany’s here in Michigan, but actually visited the Tiffany’s in NYC first. It was a significant purchase so I went to extraordinary lengths to insure it was right.

For major purchases it may be worthwhile to do some travelling, expecially if you can work it into your schedule with other projects.

I guess that is my answer- make the trip to a fitter you really feel you can trust. You probably won’t regret it.

8

Tom- Good points. Might I also add-

  1. What is the fitters educational background? Do they understand basic biomechanics and physiology? If they don’t know all the answers, do they have a network of other medical professionals to refer you to?
  2. What formal fit training or certifications does the fitter have and how do you feel about these systems or philosophies? Does the fitter continually strive to increase their knowledge of fitting and the demands of your sport?
  3. Will your fitter put you in a position based on “how it looks” or a rigid formula or a series of body length measurements, or will they use #1 and #2 above to put you in the right position based on your experience, flexibility, goals, and injury and medical history, and budget (not everyone can afford all new equipment, but they should get an honest assessment of what they have)?

There is a shop near me who claims to be custom fit experts because they have been doing it for a long time. I have been less than impressed with their work and “fixed” a lot of their goofs. Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent. If you do a lot of bad fits, you get really good at fitting badly.

9

Tom, this may or may not belong in this thread but what if:

someone bought a 650 bike (from someone else) when, because of their size or other factors, they should have bought a 750. Would you try and fit this person as best you can on that bike or do you say sorry, I don’t feel like I can put you in an optimal position because of a bike that does that fit you?

in other words, would you ever turn someone down who asked for a bike fitting?

Just curious.

10

Hey Herschel34,

This is a great question because it addresses the on-gong moral dilemma of sales vs. integrity.

Our policy is to send people away who are, what we call, “no fits”.

We will, and have recently, denied fitting or sales service to a person because they presented a hazard to themselves. While this seems noble it is also selfish.

A woman we said was a no fit on a bike recently bought it elsewhere. Another customer told me she had a serious crash on it soon after buying it. In addition to walking that walk by sticking to our guns on our fit philosophy we were also covering our own asses. I could tell that woman on the bike she wanted was an accident waiting to happen. I told her that too. She became the accident: Concussion, closed head injury, wrecked bike. The whole nine yards.

To me, it was like wlaking off a flight that you find out crashed on the way to its destination because you had a bad feeling.

I should emphasize, I did warn her specifically and also in lamen’s terms about the hazards of using the equipment she was asking for. It went in one ear and out the other.

Bottom line: She didn’t believe me.

Now, having said all that, you CAN get a perfect position on a poorly fitting bike. That is to say, you can get the person’s posture correct for them on a bike that is NOT correct for them. The problem here is the bike will be fine in a static environment, i.e. an indoor trainer, but when it is used in the real world, a dynamic environment where the variables of weight distribution, wheelbase, turning radius, etc. manifest themselves then the bike will perfrom very poorly or be downright dangerous.

You can have good fit and bad position, good position and bad fit, and you can also have both bad fit and bad position. You need both fit and position for optimal results.

11

I’m blatantly bumping this up to get some more air time and commentary on it on Monday, Sunday evenings being a slow time on Slowtwitch.

I feel it is an important dialogue. Pardon my bump guys…

12

prime example of shameless self promotion;-) good for you Tom
.

13

Well, I try to intersperse my self-promotion with genuine information, so I think Dan lets me stay.

It’s like commercials with information in between. I call it “infotainment”

14

Tom,

I was just thinking, I’d be one of those folks who you sent away.

15

I even see people spend money to travel to a “fit” shop working with someone all day then going into another shop to have their bike worked on without having every position marked. The mechanic then works on the bike and puts thing back together as close as memory serves.

16

Unless the person is just a “tweeker”. They are one of those types that just can’t leave anything alone.

17

Here’s my personal situation as I suspect it relates to this topic.

I bought a tri bike from a reputable LBS that I have always had great experiences with. I bought it durring an after hours sales event for special customers and it was a very well attended and crowded floor room. I selected a model bike that was on my ‘short list’ of bikes to buy IF it fit correctly and was priced well. I asked the sales guy if I fit on this particular frame. We put it on the trainer and spent 5 minutes determining that it was a good fit. We made an appointment for me to return for the complete fit process, as that night the store was just selling bikes and scheduling the fittings for a later date.

Here is where I suspect I am making myself mental for possibly no good reason: I am 6’3 and was told the bike I bought was a good fit. It is a 57 frame (a QR Caliente with an actual 55cm top tube). I understand that stated bike sizes are arbitrary and will be shorter for a tri bike vs road bike. I am 6’3 and ride a 60 road bike. The store only had a 57 frame in the model I selected, so I never had the opportunity to see if the 59 frame was a better fit for me. So now I am struggling with my position (making tweaks) and in the back of my head I question if I am on the ideal frame or if I was simply sold a bike that was marked down as part of last year’s leftovers and may be a bit too small for me to achieve an optimum position.

Tom your points are well articulated, as always.

18

One of the greatest obsessive “tweakers” of all time: Eddy Merckx.

19

Did you get fit at Maplewood? They are good from what I have seen out on the road. The guys took Dan’s FIST seminar if I remember correctly.

Be glad you may have purchased too small. Too small can be fixed, it’s hard to make a frame smaller… I was riding a 52 when I should have been on a smaller frame. I was limited in my choice of frames at the time.

I had to get a 50mm, 0 deg rise stem and push the seat all the way forward to achieve a comfortable aero position. The top tube was just too long for my torso, and I was on the nose of the saddle the entire time. I made due with the changes and rode well, but it was still a compromise in fit. I ended up selling that frame b/c it would never fit right.

Now I cannot decide what to buy.

20

Thanks for your reassurances. I am riding on an Arione and it is very cool to be able to slide so far up or back as needed. I try not to move around too much but it is very nice to have the extra saddle there when you need it!