This seems like a classic Lionel over correction/reaction. Instead of making a slight change where he could alternate carbon vs non carbon depending on the run workout, he goes all the way to the other side of the spectrum to full on non carbon. His run hasn’t really been the problem. Why are we changing anything on the run?
That said, I think most folks are taking their racing carbon shoes and after a big race or 2, they become trainers. Next big race, new carbon shoes are purchased. Rinse, repeat.
For me, the hoka carbon x was a solid shoe for daily training. It was only $175-180 so I would do most of my running in those (a lower tier carbon shoe) to save my $250 carbon shoes that were dedicated for racing or speed work.
Any issues he has with his running has nothing to do with his shoes…
Don’t worry, he chased gains with his run form a few years back and shortly dropped that thought. I’m sure he’ll come back to it at some point lol.
Sounds like he’s aware but my concern would be adaptation prior to race day. New shoes always bother me, but then again I don’t have the 10s of 1000s of running miles in my legs like he does. I’m sure he’ll be fine.
I personally prefer to keep carbons as part of my rotation, one run a week. Sometimes it’s an easy run, sometimes threshold, sometimes long. Helps keep my legs adapted without getting used to them during certain sessions.
Side note I did 20 km in a nike zoom carbon purchased in sept of 2019 with over 6000 km in them, they still work fine and they don’t die like advertised. ( they want you to buy more of them each year and some companies noted that get you to not buy they).
I do think it’s risky with AFs to not train in them sufficiently prior to race day - the stack and geometry are different enough from most other run shoes, that you’re risking some potential muscle strain when the shoes rocket you off faster than you’ve ever run in training. (Happened to me twice until I went to all-AF training/racing.)
I still remember the first run I did in the original Nike (what were they called? 4%?)
It was a week before a marathon and 7:40 felt like 8:20 and 6:40 felt like 7:30. I dont think you need to acclimate to them.
I went on a vacation in Mexico and wore my ASICS (cannot remember name) carbon shoes on the plane. When I unpacked I realized I left my shoes at home. So I wore them and trained in them for 5 days.
I got plantar faciatis a week later. I understand that’s not actually evidence, but I’m convinced it was the shoes.
Yes “carbon” is at this point a wide variety of shoe quality and now even training shoes have “carbon” so it’s a bit of “what does carbon mean” discussion. Having managed a store that sold carbon shoes (high quality and the training models), athletes racing only in carbon was not the choices I was seeing from the masses.
So far I have 2 Nike alphafly in my annual rotation.
I do think it’s risky with AFs to not train in them sufficiently prior to race day - the stack and geometry are different enough from most other run shoes, that you’re risking some potential muscle strain when the shoes rocket you off faster than you’ve ever run in training. (Happened to me twice until I went to all-AF training/racing.)
I still remember the first run I did in the original Nike (what were they called? 4%?)
It was a week before a marathon and 7:40 felt like 8:20 and 6:40 felt like 7:30. I dont think you need to acclimate to them.
I went on a vacation in Mexico and wore my ASICS (cannot remember name) carbon shoes on the plane. When I unpacked I realized I left my shoes at home. So I wore them and trained in them for 5 days.
I got plantar faciatis a week later. I understand that’s not actually evidence, but I’m convinced it was the shoes.
Haha the other people that got plantar fascia in Mexico blames flip flops and walking on the beach?
That said it would be uncomfortable if you wore them all day as they force you weight forward so your toes were likely digging in downward to stop you from sliding forward.
Side note I did 20 km in a nike zoom carbon purchased in sept of 2019 with over 6000 km in them, they still work fine and they don’t die like advertised. ( they want you to buy more of them each year and some companies noted that get you to not buy they).
Old PEBA shoes feel better than any EVA because it still maintains the squish on compression, but don’t return as much energy anymore.
TPE supershoes will last far longer though.
Sorry , I didn’t want to suggest the foam doesn’t hold full bounce just that you can still run in them. they still work. It’s not like a threat to your health running after 450 km. Like everything it’s not like new.
I can understand his feeling on the carbon shoe.
I rode a chipped Bionx electric kit on my urban bike. Draft cars in rush hour, setting best times commuting. Wasn’t like I was taking it easy. It got stolen, so bought a Brodie regular bike and shocked how much I adapted to the e-drive, losing the start-up grunt. I could spin OK. Haven’t been on an e-bike since.
He’s definitely heading to the right direction. He looks scary now. Bleached hair, going so hard with non-carbon shoes. This guy is determined. Love to see him like this again. Give him AF3, Cielo, Wave Rebellion Pro 2, Puma Nitro…whatever the best out there. He will dust everyone.
I can understand his feeling on the carbon shoe.
I rode a chipped Bionx electric kit on my urban bike. Draft cars in rush hour, setting best times commuting. Wasn’t like I was taking it easy. It got stolen, so bought a Brodie regular bike and shocked how much I adapted to the e-drive, losing the start-up grunt. I could spin OK. Haven’t been on an e-bike since.
What does this mean ? Do you think carbon shoes give you a motor.
A guy doing a 1 km run interval in 2:54 in carbon is the same effort as a guy doing 2:58 in non carbon so even if the athlete lost 4 seconds of training time they are doing still the same wattage .
It’s not like a e bike were you get to go 100 watts less and do 150 watts for what would be 250 watts on a road bike. And you lose fitness on it.
Been using the Nike’s since the 4%. I only use them for racing, perhaps a hard interval close to race day and one run prior to race day, since the 4%, 1 pair VF1, 2 pair VF2 and now just got some VF3 for a race later in the year. Never had an issue with them and still use the VF1 (over 1000kms) for the occasional interval.
LS seems to be looking for excuses in all the wrong places. Prefer him to focus on what he needs to do to get back to racing near the front
I’ve been running in all the Nike carbon offerings starting with the first Vapor Fly, that must be going on 3 years now without any issues. I’m trying to see the logic in what Lionel is implying here. He acknowledges he runs faster in carbon shoes and that is somehow impeding his race results. So to fix that he needs to be working harder in non-carbon shoes to hit those same training paces and that will translate to faster race pace when he wears the carbon shoes.
…or run faster in carbon in training and maybe that will lead to better results.
I think his reaction is a typical overreaction, but there’s a grain of truth to the “run in not carbon shoes sometimes”. It’s akin to when barefoot running was the craze. IDGAF about ‘paleo running’ or ‘natural gait’, just performance. Barefoot running has a place to strengthen different muscles and essentially as a stride drill. Plenty of track teams do barefoot striders at practice. Barefoot running is to running shoes what running shoes are to carbon running shoes.
Running in carbon shoes is different than non carbon shoes, most especially with foot muscles and joints. It’s not a bad idea to run in both. You could even go so far as to use regular shoes in the offseason and increase use of carbon shoes as races approach, but I don’t think that’s necessary.
FWIW training in supershoes is not a bank breaking endeavor. Buy a pair for races (you know, those $1000 entry things) and use them as trainers after the race. Or use them for two races to halve the cost. You don’t need a new pair every 100 miles if you’re just training in them
Been using the Nike’s since the 4%. I only use them for racing, perhaps a hard interval close to race day and one run prior to race day, since the 4%, 1 pair VF1, 2 pair VF2 and now just got some VF3 for a race later in the year. Never had an issue with them and still use the VF1 (over 1000kms) for the occasional interval.
LS seems to be looking for excuses in all the wrong places. Prefer him to focus on what he needs to do to get back to racing near the front
I am not sure you have been taking enough notes this is par for the course.
swim buddy hired one year to draft in kona.
Biking with a camel back in kona.
I need a canyon to beat Jan yet never does tests on it.
I think it’s ok to do workouts in regular shoes , I do it a lot too. But to make a video saying it’s going. To change the game this year etc , click bate !!!
You can’t just train on you tube you need something to create a difference in opinion? He could do that whole video not mention shoes and zzzzzzzzzz boring .
I can understand his feeling on the carbon shoe.
I rode a chipped Bionx electric kit on my urban bike. Draft cars in rush hour, setting best times commuting. Wasn’t like I was taking it easy. It got stolen, so bought a Brodie regular bike and shocked how much I adapted to the e-drive, losing the start-up grunt. I could spin OK. Haven’t been on an e-bike since.
What does this mean ? Do you think carbon shoes give you a motor.
A guy doing a 1 km run interval in 2:54 in carbon is the same effort as a guy doing 2:58 in non carbon so even if the athlete lost 4 seconds of training time they are doing still the same wattage .
It’s not like a e bike were you get to go 100 watts less and do 150 watts for what would be 250 watts on a road bike. And you lose fitness on it.
And if you are doing 1k*10 workout 40s lost. It starts adding over time. Good move by sanders. No more cool just for YouTube video workouts so you can hang with a pure runner. Many good runners I follow on Strava do the same. The ones who always use the shoes stagnate, in fact in a race the shoes don’t work, such XC… do terrible.
If you are supposed to be doing the majority of your runs “easy” you shouldn’t be running in carbon. You also shouldn’t be lying to yourself about what is “easy”. I might be wrong, but I thought that was supposed to be the greatest asset of the lactate testing. Not overdoing it and dialing in your easier efforts to just the right intensity to get the stimulus.
So the answer is obvious. If 80% of your runs are on the easier side, don’t use carbon on them. Your track runs and speed workouts, use old carbons at least 50% of the time if not all the time.
If he feels like he has to run all of his runs fast to not be weak… isn’t that the same age old overtraining problem he always has?
I can understand his feeling on the carbon shoe.
I rode a chipped Bionx electric kit on my urban bike. Draft cars in rush hour, setting best times commuting. Wasn’t like I was taking it easy. It got stolen, so bought a Brodie regular bike and shocked how much I adapted to the e-drive, losing the start-up grunt. I could spin OK. Haven’t been on an e-bike since.
What does this mean ? Do you think carbon shoes give you a motor.
A guy doing a 1 km run interval in 2:54 in carbon is the same effort as a guy doing 2:58 in non carbon so even if the athlete lost 4 seconds of training time they are doing still the same wattage .
It’s not like a e bike were you get to go 100 watts less and do 150 watts for what would be 250 watts on a road bike. And you lose fitness on it.
And if you are doing 1k*10 workout 40s lost. It starts adding over time. Good move by sanders. No more cool just for YouTube video workouts so you can hang with a pure runner. Many good runners I follow on Strava do the same. The ones who always use the shoes stagnate, in fact in a race the shoes don’t work, such XC… do terrible.
I know your stance of carbon shoes? it doesn’t make sense but I know of it.
Did you see what happened to Blumenfelt in Milwaukee cramping on the bike. He and his coach said this was to with very little time on the bike vs road bike prepping for ITU. they should have done more on the TT bike. testing and efforts.
If carbon shoes are an aero bike and regular shoes are a road bike ( some more speed at the same work load. Should you focus your speed work on the bike or shoe you plan to race on and use the other for the easy???
Therefore wouldn’t you want race prep efforts like the race and easy effort like you don’t ?
I know your stance of carbon shoes? it doesn’t make sense but I know of it.
Did you see what happened to Blumenfelt in Milwaukee cramping on the bike. He and his coach said this was to with very little time on the bike vs road bike prepping for ITU. they should have done more on the TT bike. testing and efforts.
If carbon shoes are an aero bike and regular shoes are a road bike ( some more speed at the same work load. Should you focus your speed work on the bike or shoe you plan to race on and use the other for the easy???
Therefore wouldn’t you want race prep efforts like the race and easy effort like you don’t ?
the TT vs road not a good example, as the position must be adapted to. More so it would be like always training on TT bike with disc wheel and aero suit vs without. BUT, sure there are maybe 1-2 workouts before a race done in the shoes to adapt (and see if there are kinks to workout)