This is the explanation needed for the poll at right. Shimano is just now releasing samples of its new 11sp electronic shifting for tri/tt. It features “1 button” shifting on the extensions, and it’s upshift for the rear derailleur on one extension, and downshift for the RD on the other extension. The pursuit position is like the original Di2, with both upshift and downshift FD buttons on the left hand and for the RD on the right hand. This means that if you want to shift the FD you must come out of the aero position with your left hand to execute the shift on the pursuit.
An alternative is to plug the electronic bar-end shifters that come with Ultegra electronic groups into the ends of the extensions, and pair with an otherwise all-Dura Ace bike. If you do this, it’ll be exactly the way the original Di2 electronic shifting works: 2 buttons on every shifter, at every hand position.
Obviously, if you have a bike like a Cervelo P5, it’s hard to imagine 1-button shifting working, as there is no place for pursuit shifters at all if you rely on the P5’s Magura hydraulic brake, which means with 1-button shifting on a Magura-equipped P5 there is no front derailleur shifting at all. But for all you folks who might be interested in a bike with electronic shifting, what’s your preference:
1 button shifting, where only the RD is actuated via bar-end shifting and FD shifting can only be actuated at the pursuit bars;
2 button shifting, where the RD is up/down shifted on the right extension and FD on the left extension.
One thing to note: Shimano does not call the 2-button shifters “Ultegra”. However, they are 6700 series parts, technically “R671”, whereas the 1-button Di2 shifters are 9700 parts, specifically, SW9071. So, while Shimano is resisting calling the 2-button shifters Ultegra, they are sorta kinda Ultegra (they don’t say Ultegra on them). I point this out, because some folks just won’t be able to abide despoiling an $15,000 electronic Dura Ace bike with a… eck… Ultegra part. And that’s fine. But in full disclosure, this is what’s happening, and best you know so that when you vote you have all the information.
OEs (bike companies) are going to pay special attention to how all you Slowtwitchers vote, so, think about this before you press a button.
There are a few simple joys of Di2 on a Tri bike.
First and foremost is dual position shifting.
Second is being able shift the FD and RD from the pursuit bars at the same time without effort, hesistation or worry.
I can understand that for some courses and areas that are generally flat, that the 1-button, RD only system would be suitable. However, I don’t see why it would ever be preferrable. I guess I’m missing something.
here’s what i think. i think this is a response to what pro cycling teams are asking for. i think that they are on their tt bikes so little that they forget which button is which, that is, they know that the left is FD and the right RD, but, on each shifter i think they forget which is up and which is down. plus, they spend so much time out of the saddle and out of the aero position that they don’t really think they need FD shifting on the extensions. personally, i’m with you. no way i’d give up FD shifting on the extensions.
Since shimano 11-speed is brand new, there are hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of shimano-compatible wheels out there that can’t accept shimano 11-speed cassettes, and can’t be converted to accept them.
So why doesn’t shimano make (at least for a few ‘transition’ years) a series of special hybrid 10-speed cassettes (that would fit on these slightly older wheels) that would have an 11-speed cog-to-cog spacing? This would mean that I could go right now to buy shimano’s latest groupos in 11-speed and buy one of these 10/11 hybrid shimano cassettes and still easily use my slightly older (zipp 2010) race wheels with my new drivetrain. Yes, I’d only have 10 cogs to use, but that is a tiny compromise to make to get the highly improved performance of this new generation of shimano components.
If shimano did this, there would be a veritable STAMPEDE of folks trying to snap up their newest stuff. Because nobody wants to toss their old Zipp, Hed, Enve, Flo, Reynolds, etc. wheels …
Shimano, if you guys are listening, this is a no-brainer and and a massive win-win for your company. But I suggest you move fast. Because if you don’t do it, someone else will.
I thought I read that, with a simple program change (using a device you or your LBS can buy), you can run the new Dura Ace Di2 as 10 speed on your current wheels.
I thought I read that, with a simple program change (using a device you or your LBS can buy), you can run the new Dura Ace Di2 as 10 speed on your current wheels.
I’ve heard similar.
But what about if you want to run new-generation shimano mechanical components ?
Rather than barends, I’d be great if they just had a button pad you could place where you needed it. The only advantage of the volume of the barends is that they are big enough to house a battery when this all goes wireless.
I plan to use a ring switch (on my finger) on each hand - FD and RD - with the wire sewn up my sleeve and down my shirt to an umbilical cord connecter near the seat.
I will be able to shift while blowing snot or scratching my ass - that to me is one advantage of electrical shifting.
I voted 2 button, but because the bike I am considering putting di2 on is a P5 and I am going to use the Magura brakes, which is one of the main reasons I bought the bike in the first place.
I think the only move away from the standard left hand shifts fd and right hand shifts rd that would be worth it would be to have programmed shifting. Up button means next higher gear, down button means next lower gear. No need to think about which derailleur you’re shifting.
With electronic shifting you have accurate front shifts even under full pedaling load, no?
here’s what i think. i think this is a response to what pro cycling teams are asking for. i think that they are on their tt bikes so little that they forget which button is which, that is, they know that the left is FD and the right RD, but, on each shifter i think they forget which is up and which is down. plus, they spend so much time out of the saddle and out of the aero position that they don’t really think they need FD shifting on the extensions. personally, i’m with you. no way i’d give up FD shifting on the extensions.
I don’t see how separating the buttons would make the shifting more intuitive. If you are not used to the button positions with the existing 2 button system, what suggests that you would remember that right extension is up-shift and left extension is down? I think a better option would be:
a more intuitive 2 button system for RD shifting on the right extension (e.g. have the upshift button placed on top where the thumb rests & the down shift on the underside near the index finger). This would more closely mimic the traditional cable shifting (press the thumb to shift up; pull with the index to shift down). Mimicking the old system would lead to fewer errors.make the FD on the extensions optional. I don’t FD shift from the extensions much so leaving that out could make the system a little cheaper. The initial cost of the system is a significant barrier to entry into e-shifting. Make the minimal outlay cheaper & more people will give it a try (and will likely buy the optional FD extension shifting later). provide an option for shifting in the pursuit position as separate from the brake lever (i.e. the non-extension shifting buttons do not necessarily have to be part of the brake levers). This would allow their use with the Mugura brakes (and allow other mfg to make brake levers with a spot to the shifting buttons). This could have the ancillary benefit of decreasing initial investment (e.g. you can buy the shifting package but opt for cheaper brake levers and/or make compromises as to aerobar choices that offer integrated brake levers).
i can’t see why you would TAKE AWAY functionality that has already been figured out? if they want to develope and SELL an alternative, fine. but standard should be the 2 shift function on the extensions.
this is also coming from someone that has had more problems than not with Di2…
what problems did you have with Di2? knock on wood, but the stuff has been brilliant and bulletproof for me. now, i actually prefer cabled shifting on road bikes. however, on the tri bike i have had nothing but perfect performance.
maybe it’s just a case of spending more time on road bikes with electronic, but, i don’t like the occasional unintentional shift that occurs when i hit a button inadvertently. this happens in tri as well, on the pursuits. i’ve shifted from the small ring into the big more times than i can begin to count while out of the saddle on the pursuits. and since i tend to be climbing when i’m in that position this is an inconvenient time for a mis shift. but i can accept this rare occurrence in the fog of war when balanced by all the good that Di2 gives me. on the road, however, there is no functionality that i get with electronic that outweighs the inadvertent shifting by touching the buttons.
It’s been operator issues ultimately. But it started when I unplugged a ply and the wire pulle out making my option for connection a hard wire. I suppose I could have ponied up the $400 and bought two new extension shifters but cutting and soldering seemed far more logical for me. As a result I haven’t had the most reliable system ever since.
As for road bikes with it, agreed, nice but not needed. In a TT bike I will never go back to cables again.
Tim
ETA, Oh, yeah, the expansion bolt on the SAME extension shifter stripped out on me. and Yes, i was turning it the correct way and with the correct allen head (the others didn’t have issues)
The new 1-button design sounds like a substantial step backward in usability. Adding to that, the lack of compatibility with current 10sp wheel sets ensures I won’t consider this new version an “upgrade”. I guess I should thank Shimano- I can keep riding my Di2 P3 without any lust whatsoever for the newer Di2 equipped bikes!
Adding to that, the lack of compatibility with current 10sp wheel sets ensures I won’t consider this new version an “upgrade”.
I agree. That’s what’s keeping me back.
But shimano could easily make backward compatibility available with the release of a hybrid 10-spaced-11 cassette. See my post near the beginning of this thread …
If I pay spend $1500+ on an electronic shifting system there’s no way in hell I’m getting out of the aero position to shift my front derailleur, regardless of how infrequently it happens.
Since shimano 11-speed is brand new, there are hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of shimano-compatible wheels out there that can’t accept shimano 11-speed cassettes, and can’t be converted to accept them
The new Dura Ace Di2 system expands Shimano’s Rider Tuned philosophy with electronic shifting supporting either 10 or 11- speed drivetrains.
