Pieter van den Hoogenband pretty much blows this theory out of the water. He goes around 47.84 for 100m free and is the world record holder and olympic title holder. He stands 1.93 and is 71kgs according to the Athens Olympic bio. He is a sprinter, and don’t sprinters need to be stronger to be able to generate more power?
I’m sure he swims quite a bit too…but does swimming make him put on weight? Where do people get this idea that swimming makes you put on weight? Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong…
Isn’t this a genetic thing? Don’t you see the same thing in the gym? The seemingly scrawny guy benching 10X his weight while the “Macho Man” struggle to put up 200lbs?
I think the same thing goes for working out. I’ve seen some people that get fairly huge legs while cycling and have a friend who’s calves get nearly as big as his quads when he’s cycling alot. Others don’t gain much muscle mass at all.
As far as swimming goes I suspect that the ones that DON’T gain alot of upper body mass while doing alot of yardage are probably better suited to swimming faster as they have a smaller exposed area. In short the tall “strong” skinny guys are probably going to be faster swimmers than the short,strong , bulky guys.
Then again I could be completely blowing smoke out my ass…
Comparing 2-5 day a week swimmers to world record holders is not a good idea. We have nothing in common with van den hoogenband other than water. Looking at successful highschool swimmers is probably more indicative of the body of a successful swimmer who isn’t sent from above to swim.
Current World 100 free record holder, Britta Steffen
former 100m free record holder Lisbeth Lenton stands 1.67m and weighs 60kgs…not extremely ‘huge’. (ie around 5ft6, 132 pounds…similar to what someone posted on that running thread saying they were not ‘built’ for swimming)
Comparing 2-5 day a week swimmers to world record holders is not a good idea. We have nothing in common with van den hoogenband other than water. Looking at successful highschool swimmers is probably more indicative of the body of a successful swimmer who isn’t sent from above to swim.
When people are saying they don’t have the muscle bulk to swim well, the are clearly wrong. I am from a swim background and these kinds of bodies (although perhaps not as ripped or as shredded) are not exactly uncommon among teenagers who swim.
Pretty much all the ‘big’ guys I knew who swam and who did well, were only ‘big’ from the point of view that they were tall.
Although that is a good point, making judgements on the physiology of these people based on how they look in a swim suit is not valid. Although they have a very attainable amount of muscle mass, they probably have specific physiological traits that you and I don’t and cannot acheive. I totally agree that people shouldnt make excuses about their performance because of their body type, but comparing every-day people to the world class doesn’t prove that point. They probably have traits that are much more difficult to achieve than muscle bulk, that enables them to swim as fast as they do.
Sounds like a good one. I’m not a swimmer and don’t know much about it but at one point didn’t Thorpe deliberately put on about 15kg? Someone here will know what I’m talking about but I thought that was interesting for a long course guy.
I dont know the original point/discussion, but are we comparing apples to apples ??-- that is…
…a MAJORITY of distance runners are lean scrawny guys…there will be exceptions – distance swimmers are similarly lean…more muscular overall because of the nature of the training - but not bulky big…cut and lean yet muscular base…
…a MAJORITY of sprinters are big powerful guys - much more muscle mass…sprint specialist swimmers are similarly built - more muscle mass …in general.
OF COURSE THESE ARE OVERSIMPLIFIED GENERALITIES - other genetic issues are a factor - but my guess (without much knowledge of swimmers) - is that the sprinters will GENERALLY have more muscle mass than the sprinters…the specific training is the issue…
Maybe some buff guy will win Boston…and maybe some lean guy is a great swim sprinter…but in general…that wont be the case…
Have you met Danyon Loader? I sat between him and Fozzie once and there was no shoulder room at all. I was hoping that the sub 1.55 200m ability would rub off but sadly…
I would agree that a lot of the fast swimmers I have met are not big but that could be perspective (ie they’re smaller than me)
One of the guys I swam with in high school - distance swimmer, 5 minutes and change for his 500 free - was wickedly skinny, probably 5’6" and barely 100 pounds. He had absolutely no muscle tone at all, and yet he just zipped through the water. Some people are just fish!
Ron has a lot of good points - but there are other things to consider. First - the guy is pretty much 6’5". Anyone actually consider how long his arms are, and what that implies to the leverage and momment arm in his stroke? That is a lot of pull.
Secondly, overall mass is a lousy measure. I have been swimming for years. I don’t think you can swim seriously and not bulk up in your shoulders, lats, trapezius etc to some extent (genetics determining to a great degree what type of muscle mass you put on). The rest of you can basically lean out as much as you want, but those muscles will get a heavy workout and you will put on mass there. Even with losing 30 lbs since I started tri last year, suit shoulders are definitely getting tight. However, as a percentage of total body mass, it is pretty negligible. So when someone says they don’t have the mass for swimming, what they really mean is they haven’t developed the specific muscle groups to provide adequate propulsion.
Spitz was 6’1 and about 175 when he competed - hardly a rail, and if you ever see old photos of him, not exactly stick boy. Like Ron said, you cannot generalize.
I’m sure he swims quite a bit too…but does swimming make him put on weight? Where do people get this idea that swimming makes you put on weight? Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong…
If anyone told you that swimming makes you put on weight, they are idiots. Food makes you put on weight, exercise does not. Now, it may be argued that swimming aids in muscle building, but you need food for that as well.
One of the guys I swam with in high school - distance swimmer, 5 minutes and change for his 500 free - was wickedly skinny, probably 5’6" and barely 100 pounds. He had absolutely no muscle tone at all, and yet he just zipped through the water. Some people are just fish!
5 minutes and change isn’t to quick in the grand scheme of things, but there are a lot of other examples - JR Teddy who swam at Notre Dame is 5 foot nothing and light as a thimble (110-115? WAG), and was around 4:30 in his 500.
Matt Ulrichson, swam at UT in the late 90’s, was around 5’7", 125lbs (depends who you ask - I didn’t know him personally), and was a perennial finalist in the 50 free (19 mid), and 100 back (47 low), and even won the 100 back once at NCAA’s.
Anthony Ervin was/is around 6’2" 160, similar build to Hoogie, and many consider him the most talented sprinter ever. Too bad he hates swimming.
Personally, I found that as I put muscle weight on, I swam faster, particularly in the sprint department - another guy on our team got slower when he put muscle weight on - I’m guessing I was able to add a lot more strength/lb than he did.
Fulla,
IMHO, Not the most effective way to judge “natural potential” in the water. During my time at the OTC in CSprings we measured hundreds of athletes over the course of 3 years from varying ages and abilities (although most were pretty good since they were either selected to be at the OTC for national camps or were training there as part of elite level teams).
We did a COM/DEN test or Center of Mass and Density test.
Basically we had the person with full lungs placed on the bottom of the pool. As flat as they could possibly be IE nose, chest, hips, legs, feet pointed. Someone held them there until still and then released them. We asked them to simply allow themselves to float to the surface. We then recorded two things. “how” they came off the bottom, which was a measure of COM, and how long it took them to break the surface, which measured density.
Over time you develop a sharp eye for discovering centers of mass (as it is subjective, although we did try to hard to measure that) and we noticed two main things.
After about 15 months (300 plus tests seen multiple times) we could start to predict what events swimmer swam by this simple test, without knowing them.
Elite athletes tended to have higher centers of mass and be less dense (naturally).
There are other methods to yeild the same, but it was interesting.
All the best,
DaveD
