The freestyle kick

Triathlon Forum
41

I haven’t read all this thread, but just picking up at the end…I agree with Doug on the fins thing and what helped me even more in “getting it” was wearing a single fin to really, really feel something dramatic (since on ly one leg felt anything at a time). Thanks to Spindogg for that suggestion. But like everyone has said (or everyone at the end of this thread) reaching with your right arm, your right leg/hip kicks down so that your left leg/hip gets out of the way of your left arm which is pulling in a nice straight line back.

So try ONE fin and just focus on coordinating one side of your body. Get to the other end of the pool and switch feet. You’ll pick it up in no time.

42

Don,
You guys in Vermont are really getting this swimming thing. Give John a high five for me. Hope to see you all in March.
DougStern

43

Doug:

I’m still struggling with timing and body position and the coordination with the 2 beat kick. In BarryP’s photo above it appears that one swimmer is kicking down with the right foot as the right arm is pulling while in the other photo the left foot is kicking down while the right arm is pulling.

44

Reparto,
I do not teach a two beat kick. I do not think it works. You will have to check in with someone who does for its’ benefits and how to. I feel that a six beat kick is much easier to learn and works better.
DougStern

45

Well, if you won’t take Eddie’s word for it, then how about >Urbancheck? Do their distance swimmers need to bike and run after their 1500 swims? I thought not. Save your legs, learn an EFFICIENT 2 beat kick and you will be better off. -leh

46

Reparto,
I do not teach a two beat kick. I do not think it works. You will have to check in with someone who does for its’ benefits and how to. I feel that a six beat kick is much easier to learn and works better.
DougStern

While I respect Doug’s opinions and helpful posts I respectfully must disagree in this area. A two beat kick definitely works (and conserves energy) if done PROPERLY. Left foot kicks down as right hand starts to enter then extend. Only kick DOWN, don’t do an upbeat as the leg will naturally just go up when the other leg kicks down on the next pull. Can also think of it as left foot kicks down as left hand presses back in the pull (as right arm extends). Why anyone would want to take 3 times as many kicks as necessary in an event where the rest of the race will be leg dominant is beyond me. I struggle to hold a 6 beat kick for more than 50 yards - it is fine for getting out at the start but then settle into a comfortable 2 beat kick pattern.

-leh

47

Do their distance swimmers need to bike and run after their 1500 swims? I thought not. Save your legs, learn an EFFICIENT 2 beat kick and you will be better off. -leh
that is as falicous as saying that since lance does not have to run after he bikes, you shouldn’t ride high rpm’s…economy is economy…as noted, that is why marathon swimmers use 6 beat kicks

48

its not related to high cadence at all. high cadence has the benefit of bringing the cardiovascular system closer to its limits as opposed to just leg strength. you don’t do it to be economical, you do it to maximise power delivery by fully utilizing both muscle force and cardiovascular fitness. the two beat kick has nothing to do with maximising power delivery and everything to do with reducing fatigue in the legs. i’m not saying whether it works or not (i’m too weak a swimmer to even comment), but your comparison is just wrong.

49

I need to get back to a pool!
Thanks - Barry

50

This is what makes swimming a wonderful sport. There are many different views on how to get the job done. I offer my point of view which could be totally wrong. I am glad you have explained how a two beat kick works.
DougStern

51

As a devoted and determined lead weight, I’ve been trying more back kicking - and find my ‘runners ankles’ are really a problem. Is it okay to do this (and other kick sets, like front and side) with some fins? I find that, if I use fins, there’s enuf resistance that it stretches out my ankle ligaments - and, when the fins come off, it’s easier to point the toes somewhere farther back than straight down.

52

i’m not saying whether it works or not (i’m too weak a swimmer to even comment), but your comparison is just wrong.
I think your same analysis about why high cadence is best for bikers is the same as why a 6 beat kick is prety standard with all the best long distance swimmers - because it is about maximizing power delivery (by setting up the body rotation most efficiently.)

53

Kicking with fins is one of the best ways of practicing. Fins create more resistance and force you to point your toes and ankles. Do most of your kicking on your back which will strengthen you butt and hamstrings.
DougStern

54

i didn’t have a previous post (at least not in this thread) … for me to comment on how to swim would be absurd. i just don’t like inaccurate comparisons.

note also that there is an argument for a particular cadence in a triathlon context that differs from a pure road racing situation: you don’t want to over-use muscular strength because of the impending run, so a focus on the cardiovascular system has a (possibly small) preference there. a similar rationale might apply to the swim.

55

Barry,
I work with 100s of runners. Half my program is deepwater runnning. Some of them come to swimming in order to cross train through an injury. I always get a kick out of their first attempt at kicking a length of the pool. They look at their legs in disbelief and horror. “I can run a marathon. Why can’t I kick a length of the pool?”
It is all about application of force. You need to have enough ankle and toe flexibility to apply force in the direction you wish to do.
Barry, do most of your kicking on your back and you will move almost effortlessly through the water.
When I first starting running I could not run a mile. I could swim four. It is all the same thing.
DougStern

56

Left foot kicks down as right hand starts to enter then extend. Only kick DOWN, don’t do an upbeat as the leg will naturally just go up when the other leg kicks down on the next pull. Can also think of it as left foot kicks down as left hand presses back in the pull (as right arm extends).

if I am picturing this correctly (and I am certainly not claiming that I am :slight_smile: Doesn’t that mean your hip on the side you are pulling will be “closing”? i.e. my left foot is kicking down, and since it is atached to my hip and I am kicking with, more-or-less my whole leg, my left hip is then “closing” as my right arm enters/reaches. Since my right arm is doing the reaching at this point, I must be pulling with my left arm into an essentially “closed” left hip. Kind of pulling my arm down into the water as my hip also dives into the water. That doesn’t seem very hydrodynamic to me.

Why anyone would want to take 3 times as many kicks as necessary in an event where the rest of the race will be leg dominant is beyond me. I struggle to hold a 6 beat kick for more than 50 yards - it is fine for getting out at the start but then settle into a comfortable 2 beat kick pattern.

I think a 6-beat kick in tri is way “different” than it is for a sprinter in a 100M free (but what the hell do I know, I certainly am not gifted in the water!) Instead of KICK, KICK, KICK, KICK, KICK, KICK, it is KICK, kick, kick, KICK, kick, kick. The big KICKs are similar to the 2-beat kick that you describe for propulsion, but the two little ones assist in balance in the water and “get you ready/coordinated” for the next propulsive kick.

One really important difference though is that the propulsive KICK is exactly the opposite of what you describe. Kick down with your right foot as your right arm reaches forward (more specifically as your left arm pulls). What this does is assist your core rotating muscles in geting your hips “out of the way” of your pulling arm(s). We all know that rotation of your hips is where a ton of your power comes from in swimming, not your lats, and certainly not your arms. “It’s all in the hips” …swimmers, golfers, tennis players, baseball pitchers (and hitters). The stroke starts with your hips yanking your body around to get lots of power. So reach with your right arm, pull with your left arm = kick down with your RIGHT leg. Right leg kicking down means left is coming up and so is your left hip, inline with the rotation you are trying to get (and thus propulsion)

Again, I think I suck at swimming, but seem to hold my own…not only does this “work”, but it makes sense from a biomechanics perspective. (or I’m wrong and that would not be a first)

57

you’re supposed to kick when you swim?!

58

what do you mean by “crossover”? I have heard the term in reference to arms before but not legs so have no idea if i do it or not…

59

I’ve started a new swim thread. I linked to a site with lots of good swim videos. Maybe it will help answer some questions:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1124047;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

60

Do their distance swimmers need to bike and run after their 1500 swims? I thought not. Save your legs, learn an EFFICIENT 2 beat kick and you will be better off. -leh
that is as falicous as saying that since lance does not have to run after he bikes, you shouldn’t ride high rpm’s…economy is economy…as noted, that is why marathon swimmers use 6 beat kicks

This is a good point. 1. Most triathletes are not good enough to hold a strong 6 beat kick in a mile open water swim, and 2) they still have to bike and run. The comment about Lance is true, BUT what is his seat angle? Did he ride his bike to save his legs for the run?

There are a few exceptions, but swimming marathons, the only time I’d use a 6 beat kick is in the last 400 meters. The fact is that I don’t think it’s efficient for long distances. Now, if I had size 18 shoes like Ian Thorpe, Grant Hackett, Klete Keller, etc., then things might be different for me. My guess is that most triathletes would not benefit from a 6 beat kick for an entire mile, but that’s something that might be different for everyone.