I’ve been working my way through a lot of training resources, including a lot of the posts here and what I haven’t found is a solid discussion about the relative merits of the big three: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max?
Allen and Coggan seemed to prefer a lot of “sweet spot” training at 85-95% while discouraging VO2max work.
Then Dr Skiba at Physfarm seems to promote a lot more VO2max and riding at threshold.
{And yes I realize I may be misinterpreting them}
Two of the better posts on this forum contradict each other somewhat where one plan is alternate between riding at 95-105% with intervals at 110%. The other suggests lots of riding at 85%.
Now I’m looking through the Trainer Road plans, the 20 Minute Power Accelerator alternates between intervals at Sweet Spot with intervals just above threshold.
My goal is to increase my HIM bike split, which ultimately means improving both my FTP and my VO2max. So where should I/we be spending the most time?
I’ve been working my way through a lot of training resources, including a lot of the posts here and what I haven’t found is a solid discussion about the relative merits of the big three: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max?
Allen and Coggan seemed to prefer a lot of “sweet spot” training at 85-95% while discouraging VO2max work.
Then Dr Skiba at Physfarm seems to promote a lot more VO2max and riding at threshold.
{And yes I realize I may be misinterpreting them}
Two of the better posts on this forum contradict each other somewhat where one plan is alternate between riding at 95-105% with intervals at 110%. The other suggests lots of riding at 85%.
Now I’m looking through the Trainer Road plans, the 20 Minute Power Accelerator alternates between intervals at Sweet Spot with intervals just above threshold.
My goal is to increase my HIM bike split, which ultimately means improving both my FTP and my VO2max. So where should I/we be spending the most time?
Okay, so if you were stuck on a desert island, and could only train in one of the three zones, which would you pick in order to improve your HIM bike split?
Okay, so if you were stuck on a desert island, and could only train in one of the three zones, which would you pick in order to improve your HIM bike split?
Look at this way. How is it that YOU will be able to accumulate the most aerobic work. For most AG athletes, that likely comes from Sweet Spot. So, that is a sound approach. the other nice thing about SwSp is that the risk/reward ratio is relatively low, meaning, you will likely get something from it without getting fried or over fatigued. As you go to FT or above, then you need more recovery and if training time is limited, you may either 1) push too hard/frequently and become fatigued or 2) undertrain because you spend too much time recovering from the FT+ intervals. So, the risk/reward ratio is less favorable. OTOH, if you have 30 hr to train per week, you can spend a lot of time noodling around recovering and still doing the intervals and accumulating enough aerobic stress. So,… it depends, but all of the above will work.
I think you may have misconstrued Dr. Skiba’s book.
FYI - We now know that you cannot develop “threshold” & " W’ " (anaerobic capacity) at the same time. Better to focus on one or the other at any given time.
You are better to consider a strengths and weaknesses analysis of the your physiology and the “big three” as you call them and how it relates to your race goals/demands.
Okay, so if you were stuck on a desert island, and could only train in one of the three zones, which would you pick in order to improve your HIM bike split?
Your fallacious premise aside (nothing is keeping anybody from training in whichever zone they want to) - the answer is:
it depends.
The reason ncslkevin (or whaever those letters are before his name) does a crap-ton of tempo riding, is cuz he wants to ride EVERY DAY.
85% is repeatable, daily, for forever. So he does that, and it obviously works quite well for him.
The Flanagan-eqsue model has ya do a day of 2x20 at 95, and a day of VO2max. then an ez day, then repeat.
Coggan loves him some sweet spot. I’m a fan of that too, a lot of my rides in the 1-2-3 hour range, end up being upper 80% range.
Not sure you could do that daily, however. But for me, I only ride a few times a week, so that works.
And I also do some VO2max sorta stuff, doing a hillclimb TT at 105% of FTP for 17-19 mins, for example.
Or busting out some Strava KOM’s.
YMMV.
This is all right on. I would also add that it is very difficult to progressively adapt to training at and above threshold. In my world, threshold and vo2 max work put the icing on your aerobic “cake”. I do a lot of sweet spot work because it is very time efficient and I progressively adapt to it, I think of it as the highest aerobic base training you can do. After you have a great base and can fly in your sweet spot workouts while breathing through a straw, go to the higher intensities for a few months and get good at surviving at those high intensities. I don’t believe threshold+ training develops any “ability” per se, it just makes you better at surviving at those intensities, its all still based on your aerobic ability though.
… In my world, threshold and vo2 max work put the icing on your aerobic “cake”…
True, but the reverse can also be true.
10k runners making the successful transition to marathon.
ITU racers making the successful transition to Ironman.
Right it isn’t very simple in terms of execution. For those athletes I’d say specificity is the icing on their cake. Its as runners in the 80s used to do a lot. A pr in the 10k during the summer track season followed by specific marathon paced type work leads them to a fast marathon, but still, they have developed the aerobic base previous to even the track season. Its a bit like Canova’s inverted pyramid style of marathon training. In terms of the season macrocycle, even if you’re a 10ker or ITU guy, you don’t do a lot of 10k pace work or supra threshold work to try to get good at specifically what you’re trying to be able to do mid competition cycle, you do basic aerobic sub threshold work to build the foundation, followed by the upper level stuff which makes you good at tolerating work at high heart rates.
Right it isn’t very simple in terms of execution. For those athletes I’d say specificity is the icing on their cake. Its as runners in the 80s used to do a lot. A pr in the 10k during the summer track season followed by specific marathon paced type work leads them to a fast marathon, but still, they have developed the aerobic base previous to even the track season. Its a bit like Canova’s inverted pyramid style of marathon training. In terms of the season macrocycle, even if you’re a 10ker or ITU guy, you don’t do a lot of 10k pace work or supra threshold work to try to get good at specifically what you’re trying to be able to do mid competition cycle, you do basic aerobic sub threshold work to build the foundation, followed by the upper level stuff which makes you good at tolerating work at high heart rates.
Yeah, but the OP asked about cycling. Running is a slightly different matter because there is a neurological component that must be trained/maintained that is not so critical in cycling, especially triathlon.
Still, if you look at what Lydiard did with his guys in the 60s (Olympic medalists from the 1500 to marathon), they all did the exact same thing except for 10 weeks before the primary competition. Only then did they specifically focus on 1500 vs marathon. Aerobic sports are just that, aerobic, and therefore require a lot of aerobic work.
Look at this way. How is it that YOU will be able to accumulate the most aerobic work. For most AG athletes, that likely comes from Sweet Spot. So, that is a sound approach. the other nice thing about SwSp is that the risk/reward ratio is relatively low, meaning, you will likely get something from it without getting fried or over fatigued. As you go to FT or above, then you need more recovery and if training time is limited, you may either 1) push too hard/frequently and become fatigued or 2) undertrain because you spend too much time recovering from the FT+ intervals. So, the risk/reward ratio is less favorable. OTOH, if you have 30 hr to train per week, you can spend a lot of time noodling around recovering and still doing the intervals and accumulating enough aerobic stress. So,… it depends, but all of the above will work. Make sense?
This is one of the best, most concise summaries on bike training/improvement I’ve seen.
Look at this way. How is it that YOU will be able to accumulate the most aerobic work. For most AG athletes, that likely comes from Sweet Spot. So, that is a sound approach. the other nice thing about SwSp is that the risk/reward ratio is relatively low, meaning, you will likely get something from it without getting fried or over fatigued. As you go to FT or above, then you need more recovery and if training time is limited, you may either 1) push too hard/frequently and become fatigued or 2) undertrain because you spend too much time recovering from the FT+ intervals. So, the risk/reward ratio is less favorable. OTOH, if you have 30 hr to train per week, you can spend a lot of time noodling around recovering and still doing the intervals and accumulating enough aerobic stress. So,… it depends, but all of the above will work. Make sense?
This is one of the best, most concise summaries on bike training/improvement I’ve seen.
I would put more focus on threshold, as that is approximately(a bit below) where you will be spending most of your time during a HIM bike, compared to VO2. If you have a high VO2 but a threshold that is relatively low compared to your V02, you wont go that fast over a longer period of time. For example, my VO2 is at 63,1. Not that high for a guy running 9:55 over 3km. But my threshold is at 80% of my V02max which is relatively high, which allows me to run at a higher pace without using that much oxygen.
But, as previous posters have said, the key to improving your bike is a combination of the three.
(Even managed to get some back door bragging in there, and I’m not even sorry, hehe)
I would put more focus on threshold,** as that is approximately(a bit below) where you will be spending most of your time during a HIM bike, **compared to VO2.
You want to spend 2 hours a bit above threshold in a HIM? 80-85% of FTP maybe instead?
If you’d like an easy to understand primer on the whole CP / W’ thing, see this video I did last week.
Most of the training studies on CP and W’ seem to show that when CP rises, W’ goes down or stays the same. (***See refs below) In my experience, any reasonable endurance training protocol drives the CP up and the W’ down (though whether the W’ decrease is significant is another matter.)
The way to think of it is this:
Understand what we mean by the “size of the W’”. The W’ (AWC) is a capacity…like a battery or a gas tank, which can be drained quickly or slowly. As you might expect. good sprinters tend to have a higher W’ than people who are not good sprinters. However, having a high W’ doesn’t make you a good sprinter, just as having a large gas tank doesn’t make your family van faster than a Ferrari. What makes a good sprinter is the ability to deliver that W’ quickly. Thus, while training, the W’ may go down (the size of the battery or tank gets smaller), but the ability to sprint (i.e. how fast can you drain the battery or empty the tank) might go up. For example, when I do a few weeks of hard interval training, my CP and W’ remain absolutely unchanged. However, my peak power goes up by 15%.
A reasonable way to think of the W’ is probably that it represents an index of the amount of energy that can be delivered by the fast-twitch muscle fibers before they fatigue. Look at it this way: Watts = joules per second. So, if you are riding at 300W, you are spending 300 joules per second. Now, if your CP is 200W, that means you are spending 100J of W’ every second. The other 200J per second are being generated by a ‘sustainable’ or ‘aerobic’ means.
With me?
Ok, so, if your W’ goes down, and your CP goes up…Let’s say, your W’ drops by 4000J and your CP goes up by 50W, you could now say that your CP is 250W. So now, when you are riding at 300W, you are now only spending 50J of W’ per second instead of 100. Thus, you can go longer before fatigue sets in, because you are emptying the battery more slowly. This is probably because you have pushed some of those faster-twitch fibers to a more slow-twitch profile with training.
In a general sense, fitness is really about increasing your sustainable power. So rather than ‘aerobic’ and ‘anaerobic’ it probably makes more sense to think that the muscle mass has a particular capacity to do work. Some of that work is very sustainable, and some not. However, the sum of the the non-sustainable and sustainable work will always add up to the total work capacity of the muscle. What we are doing is simply changing how much of that work is sustainable or not, which in turn will determine how good a triathlete you are (or not).
Jenkins DG, Quigley BM. Endurance training enhances critical power. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992;24(11):1283–9.
Vanhatalo, A., Doust, J. H., & Burnley, M. (2008). A 3-min all-out cycling test is sensitive to a change in critical power. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 40(9), 1693–1699. doi:10.1249/MSS.0b013e318177871a
Poole et al. Eur J Appl Physiol. 1990;59:421–9.
I think you may have misconstrued Dr. Skiba’s book.
Maybe, but looking at Scientific Training for Triathletes it says in chapter 3 “Tempo: Long race pace training: Marathon/IM/Halif-IM. Do not spend significant time here unless racing longer events.”
The chapter then goes back and forth about training at threshold and VO2max never mentioning tempo again. And spends a few paragraphs talking about working at endurance pace.
I guess from that I’m supposed to infer that for HIM I should be spending time there? Ultimately I want a faster HIM bike split, where Coggan and quite a few others would discourage VO2max work.
With what little time I have to train I hate the thought of wasting it at the wrong zone.
I would put more focus on threshold,** as that is approximately(a bit below) where you will be spending most of your time during a HIM bike, **compared to VO2.
You want to spend 2 hours a bit above threshold in a HIM? 80-85% of FTP maybe instead?
I gotta admit - I find threshold work pretty dang hard. Keeping my HR at threshold is more than uncomfortable for me. I’m also pretty sure I’ve got my threshold right, as it’s still under the projection I’d use if I used a too-conservative standalone all-out half marathon HR as my HR threshold (about 1:30s for me).
I’m trying to work toward more threshold work this training cycle, as for my first HIM last month, I focused far more on volume than anything else (which worked for me given that it was my first, and I knew that my limiter would be not slowing down as opposed to going faster.) Hopefully more threshold work will get my under 5 in my next, but I have to say that threshold work is pretty painful for me.
75-85% is more sustainable for long term daily efforts at distance, imo.
