Target CTL for Triathlon Training?

I just watched a great webinar from peaks coaching last night on CTL and Hunter gave great examples of balancing acute training loads and rest en route to a target race when planning a season. He described what a reasonable ramp of training would look like (e.g. 5-8 TSS points/week) and what a maintainable CTL value would be for different racing categories (e.g. Cat 4 cyclist = 75-85) and peak values before rest would be needed (e.g. Cat 4 cyclist = 85-90).

What I’m curious about is whether this same kind of analysis has been done for triathletes? If I’m trying to quantify training load and recovery across all three sports, what would be a reasonable target? The numbers that Hunter describes are those associated with pure cyclists. Would that same ramp rate apply to triathletes? How does the incorporation of 3 sports affect that training impulse/recovery continuum?

There’s a great article on TP’s website for determining TSS for swimming so all 3 sports can be factored into the Performance Management Chart. (http://www.peaksware.com/articles/triathlon/calculating-swimming-tss-score.aspx) Would a reasonable peak CTL for a novice ironman training plan be 85-90 before the taper and bring that down to 75-80 with a positive TSB during that last week? What should that look like?

Any thoughts or experience with this?

A buddy of mine just let me know that his coach targets a 130 CTL (looking at bike/run only) during IM prep but he’s not anywhere near novice level so it does seem like the numbers for triathletes would/should be higher than those ranges provided for cyclists.

I have an N=1. A good start but would love to hear what others might see/use/think.

Specificity is far more important than CTL.

Specificity is far more important than CTL.

I totally agree that specificity is very important but was just looking for some anecdotal guidelines of building the year working toward a target race.

It seems pretty effective with training cyclists with regard to dialing in the peak. I am just looking to maximize the tools that are available. A lot of triathletes train with power these days and I think there is a lot of room for improving its use by effectively using the data available. Why can’t we use that with the other two sports as well in the context of the tools a lot of us already use? Just trying to build a “bigger picture” approach to the science used in training cyclists.

I will double MarkyV. I have seen significant improvements in FTP with max CTL’s of 60 mostly around 50. I would like to be higher but focusing on CTL is not the way to go IMO. It is good to look at to see how your training is progressing but in the big picture you have to understand the fundamentals of a training program and use those to design your workouts. If you are changing your workouts just to meet an arbitrary CTL you are going down the wrong road.

Specificity is far more important than CTL.

I totally agree that specificity is very important but was just looking for some anecdotal guidelines of building the year working toward a target race.

It seems pretty effective with training cyclists with regard to dialing in the peak. I am just looking to maximize the tools that are available. A lot of triathletes train with power these days and I think there is a lot of room for improving its use by effectively using the data available. Why can’t we use that with the other two sports as well in the context of the tools a lot of us already use? Just trying to build a “bigger picture” approach to the science used in training cyclists.

The simple answer is … “as high as possible”. If you’re a serious triathlete, you’re primary limitation is the time you can put into each discipline. Since CTL is primarily a function of time and intensity, figure out a way to get it as high as possible within the constraints of your life. The by product of that should be good performance since you will be “maximizing your fitness”. Maximizing your fitness should be the real objective, and CTL is just a nice simple way to quantify that objectively.

Once you’ve maximized your fitness, or put a bunch of fitness in the bank, start withdrawing during the taper and you’ll be ready to rock. Simple really, don’t you think?

My $.02

I totally agree with all of that. To be more specific of what has made me curious is using these tools to aid in rational / effective decision making to adjust or modify someone’s training specific to their progress, state of fitness, etc. Let’s say someone picks a generic training plan and they adhere to that as closely as possible to a fault. They either don’t listen to their body and find themselves in a state of fatigue or overtraining OR they underestimate their base fitness/ability or response to training and never find their real potential. In an ideal world I would see a training plan much like a hurricane landfall forecast. In the next 24h the track is pretty clear…move that out a few days and the cone of landfall is MUCH bigger. If we can have our training plan as a general guide and expect modifications/adjustments are needed along the way, it would be nice if those adjustments and modifications came with some objective reasons. When you’re putting in the time for an ironman for example, you’re gonna be tired…a lot. You toe that line of too much quite a lot. It’s in the nature of long course folks to do a lot…sometimes you HAVE to reign that back in. Sometimes it’s just not enough to say, “Dude, seriously…you need to back off a little right now”. The reason I wonder about the application of these quantitative tools (CTL, ATL, TSB, TSS) in triathlon is the limited amount of data for the other two sports.

Let me be clear that this isn’t something I would universally try to incorporate. Depending on the person, the primary objective is the love of the sport of triathlon and participating in races and enjoying the triathlon community/lifestyle. I am curious by nature and a bit of a perfectionist where these kinds of discussions and understanding of the science of training and fitness is something I’m pretty passionate about. Understanding the human body and its ability to adapt is fascinating. I think our science and art of planning a pretty good season is much better and more accurate than the weather folks predicting hurricane landfall!

I totally agree with all of that. To be more specific of what has made me curious is using these tools to aid in rational / effective decision making to adjust or modify someone’s training specific to their progress, state of fitness, etc. Let’s say someone picks a generic training plan and they adhere to that as closely as possible to a fault. They either don’t listen to their body and find themselves in a state of fatigue or overtraining OR they underestimate their base fitness/ability or response to training and never find their real potential. In an ideal world I would see a training plan much like a hurricane landfall forecast. In the next 24h the track is pretty clear…move that out a few days and the cone of landfall is MUCH bigger. If we can have our training plan as a general guide and expect modifications/adjustments are needed along the way, it would be nice if those adjustments and modifications came with some objective reasons. When you’re putting in the time for an ironman for example, you’re gonna be tired…a lot. You toe that line of too much quite a lot. It’s in the nature of long course folks to do a lot…sometimes you HAVE to reign that back in. Sometimes it’s just not enough to say, “Dude, seriously…you need to back off a little right now”. The** reason I wonder about the application of these quantitative tools (CTL, ATL, TSB, TSS) in triathlon is the limited amount of data for the other two sports**.

Let me be clear that this isn’t something I would universally try to incorporate. Depending on the person, the primary objective is the love of the sport of triathlon and participating in races and enjoying the triathlon community/lifestyle. I am curious by nature and a bit of a perfectionist where these kinds of discussions and understanding of the science of training and fitness is something I’m pretty passionate about. Understanding the human body and its ability to adapt is fascinating. I think our science and art of planning a pretty good season is much better and more accurate than the weather folks predicting hurricane landfall!

Some people have quite a lot of data :wink:

Yep - just start training - pretty soon you’ll have LOTS of it.

Something like 2400 WKO files and counting here :slight_smile:

Yep - just start training - pretty soon you’ll have LOTS of it.

Something like 2400 WKO files and counting here :slight_smile:

:slight_smile: I haven’t really counted how many files I personally have but I remember the “ol’ days” of stringing that wire from the CPU on my handle bars all the way back to the sensor on the seatstay ohhhh…7-8 years ago now. That bright yellow cap on my Mavic Open training wheelset. Ahhh…the good ol’ days… I digress.

What I meant by “limited data” is that there are a couple editions of the training with power book that I really love and the new edition does talk about some of the more triathlon specific “cycling” tools (e.g. quadrant analysis) to use BUT I have not seen too much literature out there about the same application of principles to triathlon as a “complete sport” in an of itself. I mean we could train as a cyclist using the principles from the cycling community…we could train as a runner from those principles…same thing with swimming. I suppose what I like about the WKO+, training peaks platform is that objective use of data in the performance management chart. There seems to be a lot of guidelines available based on thousands of different folks in the cycling world that provides some framework for understanding the fundamentals of cycling training. I’m not looking for a prescriptive tool…just a tool / set of guidelines that is similar to that which currently exists for cycling. It would serve as the framed blank canvass that you could start your work on.

gotcha.

Really there isn’t a need to seperate them out - train like a cyclist, train like a runner, train like a swimmer.

The catch is - you’re a cyclist that doesn’t (depending on your focus) need great sprint ability, or 1 minute or even great 5 minute power - focus on stamnia and FTP.

You’re a runner - that doesn’t really need to worry about being able to deal with surges and race tactics.

You’re a swimmer that doesn’t need to swim a 50, 100, 200 - heck even a 500 is short for you.

S. McGregor summed it up - get the CTL values as high as you can while still being able to function and make progress in your workouts - then taper.

Ale martinez has a good thread where he gathered and shared some stats for PMC data for Ironman - do a search and check it out.

Yep - just start training - pretty soon you’ll have LOTS of it.

Something like 2400 WKO files and counting here :slight_smile:

:slight_smile: I haven’t really counted how many files I personally have but I remember the “ol’ days” of stringing that wire from the CPU on my handle bars all the way back to the sensor on the seatstay ohhhh…7-8 years ago now. That bright yellow cap on my Mavic Open training wheelset. Ahhh…the good ol’ days… I digress.

What I meant by “limited data” is that there are a couple editions of the training with power book that I really love and the new edition does talk about some of the more triathlon specific “cycling” tools (e.g. quadrant analysis) to use BUT I have not seen too much literature out there about the same application of principles to triathlon as a “complete sport” in an of itself. I mean we could train as a cyclist using the principles from the cycling community…we could train as a runner from those principles…same thing with swimming. I suppose what I like about the WKO+, training peaks platform is that objective use of data in the performance management chart. There seems to be a lot of guidelines available based on thousands of different folks in the cycling world that provides some framework for understanding the fundamentals of cycling training. I’m not looking for a prescriptive tool…just a tool / set of guidelines that is similar to that which currently exists for cycling. It would serve as the framed blank canvass that you could start your work on.

Well, that’s what I was getting at as well. Some people have a lot of data (not including themselves) regarding the PMC metrics in triathlon, and running as well. Some of them have presented these concepts both for USAT and USAC.

(For those who may be reading and have requested these presentations in other venues, apologies, there are only 168 hr in a week,… I think.)

gotcha.

Really there isn’t a need to seperate them out - train like a cyclist, train like a runner, train like a swimmer.

The catch is - you’re a cyclist that doesn’t (depending on your focus) need great sprint ability, or 1 minute or even great 5 minute power - focus on stamnia and FTP.

You’re a runner - that doesn’t really need to worry about being able to deal with surges and race tactics.

You’re a swimmer that doesn’t need to swim a 50, 100, 200 - heck even a 500 is short for you.

S. McGregor summed it up - get the CTL values as high as you can while still being able to function and make progress in your workouts - then taper.

Ale martinez has a good thread where he gathered and shared some stats for PMC data for Ironman - do a search and check it out.

Again, I totally agree with all of that. When I’ve looked back at these periods of training, there are times when I was doing a single sport specific period (e.g. early season marathon). I live in a snowy area and decided to just do a simple maintenance period for cycling and focus on swimming and running. Leading up to that marathon, you could visualize the build…my CTL steadily rose to almost 90 and then I tapered for about 10 days after my last long run…TSB rose to a pretty positive number of like 10 or something and I broke my PR on that course by almost 10 minutes. Great. Good story…good science…great illustration of that PMC application (although inadvertent at the time). When I look at the same builds for shorter triathlons later that season (no long course that year), I didn’t see the same trends. I have to admit that I was not including any swimming numbers in the PMC (meaning I didn’t assign IF/TSS to the swim workouts) so some of that might have been off as I was actually spending a lot of time working on swimming that season and just maintaining the cycling.

Thanks for the Ale Martinez reference…I’ll check it out.

so all 3 sports can be factored into the Performance Management Chart.
As I wrote in a similar thread a couple of years ago…and am now re-posting from my blog:

The wider use of software that permits the measurement of training load is leading to a dangerous trend. People are beginning to believe, either from reading (or misreading) things on the Internet, or listening to other braggadocious athletes / coaches (who may or may not be truthful or properly measuring training), that there are particular, objective training goals that they should aspire to. Chasing particular stress “point” totals, using RaceDay Apollo or other software, is a fool’s errand. Moreover, the idea that you should chase particular totals is leading to really bad trends in training and injury patterns, which I observe in my medical office on a regular basis.

Those comments may seem a bit unexpected coming from someone who coaches at the elite level and develops software that follows points, tracks trends, and attempts to model and predict performance, but hear me out. Your approach to training needs to be absolutely customized if you are going to be the best you can be. The point total on any given day that will lead to your optimal performance is highly individualized. The way to find it is to train appropriately, specifically and at a reasonable volume for your fitness level, mechanical durability, chosen event, etc.

Appropriately and specifically mean you need to do training that has to do with triathlon. Doing a gazillion sets of squats has practically nothing to do with sensible triathlon training. Getting on the elliptical for hours on end in an effort to improve your running is nonsensical. You don’t get “extra points” for that sort of thing. Or rather, you get points in some sense, but they have little or nothing to do with being a good triathlete.

Reasonable means a level at which you are able to recover from day to day without a problem, and at which you do not risk injury.

Once you have addressed the above, you should regularly test your ability to perform. Observe the training composition that leads to improving performance. Then, and only then, look at the training load total that helped you go there. Then, use the “big picture”, that is, the composite of the two, to determine what you need to do to get better.

Finally, be very careful when looking at the combination of stress scores from different sports, even if they are all triathlon specific. Those totals are useful to determine “shelled” or “not shelled”, and that is all. You will find that 100 “points” that are composed of 55 from running and 45 from cycling yields very different results than the reverse.

FWIW,

Phil

gotcha.

Really there isn’t a need to seperate them out - train like a cyclist, train like a runner, train like a swimmer.

The catch is - you’re a cyclist that doesn’t (depending on your focus) need great sprint ability, or 1 minute or even great 5 minute power - focus on stamnia and FTP.

You’re a runner - that doesn’t really need to worry about being able to deal with surges and race tactics.

You’re a swimmer that doesn’t need to swim a 50, 100, 200 - heck even a 500 is short for you.

S. McGregor summed it up - get the CTL values as high as you can while still being able to function and make progress in your workouts - then taper.

Ale martinez has a good thread where he gathered and shared some stats for PMC data for Ironman - do a search and check it out.

"You’re a runner - that doesn’t really need to worry about being able to deal with surges and race tactics. "

I think this is a place where triathletes (some, not all) could rethink things a bit. It’s true that they don’t need to think about surges (of course they need to think about tactics, just different tactics), but there is a place for “speed work” in a triathletes arsenal if they want to improve their running. The question(s) is(are), how much, what kind, and when? Tricky questions those…

Steve

Do you keep seperate PMCs by sport?

I highly recommend that as it helps you to isolate the impacts that training has on itself, and also allows you to compare impacts of training levels against other sports.

I do keep a “global” PMC, but I hardly ever look at it - just bike and run. I don’t worry about swimmings PMC.

/applause
.

Tactics - i wrote that with a story a runner buddy told me. he was running in a lead group of 4 or 5 guys - one of whom he didn’t like, but knew he couldn’t outlast for the full half marathon in terms of finishing speed So he just started surging ahead - forcing the guy to respond. The guy popped at like 8 or 9 miles and my friend was able to win.

With that in mind - I fully agree with you.

so all 3 sports can be factored into the Performance Management Chart.
As I wrote in a similar thread a couple of years ago…and am now re-posting from my blog:

The wider use of software that permits the measurement of training load is leading to a dangerous trend. People are beginning to believe, either from reading (or misreading) things on the Internet, or listening to other braggadocious athletes / coaches (who may or may not be truthful or properly measuring training), that there are particular, objective training goals that they should aspire to. Chasing particular stress “point” totals, using RaceDay Apollo or other software, is a fool’s errand. Moreover, the idea that you should chase particular totals is leading to really bad trends in training and injury patterns, which I observe in my medical office on a regular basis.

Those comments may seem a bit unexpected coming from someone who coaches at the elite level and develops software that follows points, tracks trends, and attempts to model and predict performance, but hear me out. Your approach to training needs to be absolutely customized if you are going to be the best you can be. The point total on any given day that will lead to your optimal performance is highly individualized. The way to find it is to train appropriately, specifically and at a reasonable volume for your fitness level, mechanical durability, chosen event, etc.

Appropriately and specifically mean you need to do training that has to do with triathlon. Doing a gazillion sets of squats has practically nothing to do with sensible triathlon training. Getting on the elliptical for hours on end in an effort to improve your running is nonsensical. You don’t get “extra points” for that sort of thing. Or rather, you get points in some sense, but they have little or nothing to do with being a good triathlete.

Reasonable means a level at which you are able to recover from day to day without a problem, and at which you do not risk injury.

Once you have addressed the above, you should regularly test your ability to perform. Observe the training composition that leads to improving performance. Then, and only then, look at the training load total that helped you go there. Then, use the “big picture”, that is, the composite of the two, to determine what you need to do to get better.

Finally, be very careful when looking at the combination of stress scores from different sports, even if they are all triathlon specific. Those totals are useful to determine “shelled” or “not shelled”, and that is all. You will find that 100 “points” that are composed of 55 from running and 45 from cycling yields very different results than the reverse.

FWIW,

Phil

You’re preaching to the choir.

I couldn’t agree more that the training programs should be personalized to someone’s specific physical abilities and training history and goals. I would see this as the the stratification trends/continuum in the medical field. For example, the use of aspirin is the complete opposite of a stratified medicine. Pretty generic like that 26week HIM program you can pick up in a magazine. The other end of the stratification continuum would be the use of biomarkers and the application of a Herceptin regimen to a Her2 positive cancer patient(I work in oncology). That is very personalized as would be the training program one could work from using this kind of objective feedback to modify/adjust their training program. BUT there are industry standards that are widely accepted from which to start until that level of stratification is identified.

That’s all I’m after…of course you wouldn’t arbitrarily target a certain CTL for a training program but there are targets that you can start with coupled with a close, constant stream of feedback to adjust as the situation requires.

I agree with your statement that people tend to blindly pursue these targets without understanding them. I’m totally with you on that one.

Tactics - i wrote that with a story a runner buddy told me. he was running in a lead group of 4 or 5 guys - one of whom he didn’t like, but knew he couldn’t outlast for the full half marathon in terms of finishing speed So he just started surging ahead - forcing the guy to respond. The guy popped at like 8 or 9 miles and my friend was able to win.

With that in mind - I fully agree with you.

Well, from that story, you could also keep Kona 2010 in mind as well. Anyway, the vast majority or triathletes (and runners for that matter) never need to worry about those kind of tactics. The tactics most runners and triathletes need to think about are simply the logistics of race execution (including energy allocation) once the race has started. That will dictate race success or failure for most racers in a running race or triathlon, especially 1/2 or full IM. There will be a few at the front who need to worry about more complicated things.