Talk to me about ultra-running

Triathlon Forum
1

There’s an ultra race series (5 races) here in Texas, and two of the races are near my home the other 3 would require travel. So, I’m intrigued. What do I need to know as a road runner?

Training differences?
How much time on trails?
Race execution?
Gear?

Race surface seems to be mostly dirt / singlet rack. Each race offers distance options that range from 7k to 100mi. Elevation change seems to be in the 300-600 / 10k.

While I’m fine going to a race within 30min of home that’s 10k or less… I’m not likely to drive halfway across Texas for 6.22miles. So, 25-50k seem like the minimum options I’d consider if I’m going to spend 4 days traveling to/from.

The first race would be Feb 2024. Remaining races are April, may, Oct, Nov. Technically, I’d have two years to complete all 5 races.

2

Would say that the training doesn’t have to be too different from good marathon training. Mileage is one of the best predictors for time/getting through the longer races. Would just change up the quality. No need to do a lot of faster sessions. Would really focus on threshold to marathon pace for workouts, with a healthy amount of volume. Elevation is something to consider. If you run mostly flat & then expect to race a hilly ultra that might not be the best planning. I don’t think you need to be on the trails a ton in training but that’s also something to think about maybe for your long runs or if you expect the race to be technical. Instead of lining up a bunch of workout days, I would do 1 mid-week workout & then include longer runs like a mid-week medium long run & weekend long run. You can experiment with back to back long runs. I think getting up to 30 miles in 2 weekend long runs (1st run doesn’t even need to be long can do 8-10 & then 20ish) sets you up well for a 50k-50 miler.

As far as race execution goes, get comfortable fueling. You need to eat/drink as much as you can handle in these events. Pacing is important, especially early. For gear maybe just get used to carrying a hydration pack or a handheld.

3

Lots of ultra runners here, but you probably want an ultra specific forum.

4

I’ve only done a couple 50 mile trail races, so my experience is limited.

Training on trails (not pavement) is super helpful. If you shift your running to trails, it add’s time to do the same miles as you would on the road. Since you’d be training for ultra’s, that means even more miles (and more time). My wife was pretty happy when I got away from the trail ultra’s, because I’d take off on long weekend runs (in the woods) for up to 6-7 hours. If the races will have big hills (and they almost always do), then your training should include plenty of elevation.

Race execution: By my eye, most people had too much gear. As long as there are aid stations, it should be possible to go pretty minimal (like just carrying a water bottle and some food/gels). But, sometimes it’s part of the fun to use a ton of gear, so that’s an option too.

5

yNo need to do a lot of faster sessions.
.

Hmm just saw 2nd place guy at Golden trail series do 3 miles in 14 min. Next day he went to bear mountain to do some 20+ milers.

Anyways, a 10k worth going to nearish Texas is usatf XC championship in Florida . Wish I could go

6

I’ve only done a couple 50 mile trail races, so my experience is limited.

Training on trails (not pavement) is super helpful. If you shift your running to trails, it add’s time to do the same miles as you would on the road. Since you’d be training for ultra’s, that means even more miles (and more time). My wife was pretty happy when I got away from the trail ultra’s, because I’d take off on long weekend runs (in the woods) for up to 6-7 hours. If the races will have big hills (and they almost always do), then your training should include plenty of elevation.

Race execution: By my eye, most people had too much gear. As long as there are aid stations, it should be possible to go pretty minimal (like just carrying a water bottle and some food/gels). But, sometimes it’s part of the fun to use a ton of gear, so that’s an option too.

Most triathletes carry too much gear! HA!

I’m training for a hilly 50 milers next year (3500m+) and the biggest local hill around here is about 50m. Repeats are gonna suuuuuck.

I have heard of ultra runners mixing a lot of cycling into their training. I just can’t give up my gravel cycling so I hope it works.

7

I’m a pretty good ultra runner. I came 3rd in my AG in LyonSainteLyon last year, this is one of the biggest ultra runs in the world in terms of participants, I did the longest 100 mile option (160km). I come from a cycling and triathlon background, but have now competed in 7 Ultra’s between 60 and 80k, 3 between 100-130k and one 160k. I mainly do pretty low key events, but normally finish in top 10 overall

I will take some more time later to answer more comprehensively, however, you can combine triathlons and ultra running, the training is pretty similar - the most important thing is to have a very solid level of base fitness

Biggest differences
You can walk in an ultra
You will lose your toe nails
Your quads will be screaming
You probably want poles
The ultra running community is awesome but very strange

8

Hmm just saw 2nd place guy at Golden trail series do 3 miles in 14 min. Next day he went to bear mountain to do some 20+ milers.

Yep, the top guys are pretty quick - sub 30mins 10km not usual. So while you probably can do ok without speed stuff I’m not sure it’s optimal - of course depends on your goals somewhat too.

“Short” ultras might not be too much different to a standard marathon - particularly if the route is relatively flat. 100mile ultra with lots of elevation and some technical is a completely different ball game. Think probably using poles and lots of walking.

In terms of training I don’t think anyone would say volume is not important. Although there are some that avoid doing many long runs (the argument is the diminishing adaptations are not worth the fatigue. One session I really like as someone living in a flat area is weighted vest/loaded backpack and hiking on a treadmill set at max elevation. Can rack up some decent elevation as 100% uphill, and a bit easier on the legs than running, plus the added weight builds up strength a little.

9

yNo need to do a lot of faster sessions.
.

Hmm just saw 2nd place guy at Golden trail series do 3 miles in 14 min. Next day he went to bear mountain to do some 20+ milers.

Anyways, a 10k worth going to nearish Texas is usatf XC championship in Florida . Wish I could go

Wasn’t saying this as a 1:1. A lot of the top guys are 14:xx/30:00/sub-2:20 on the roads. My guess is that person isn’t running an all-out 5k close to their goal ultras. It’s Turkey Trot season. Not surprised to see some decent results. Just saying that good ultra training can be an extension of good marathon training. Most people running good mileage in a marathon build are doing a weekly session like 8 x mile @ T w./ 1:00 rest versus 3 x mile @ VO2 with 2:00-3:00 rest. That’s the point I was making. Love to see trail runners throw down fast road times & send LetsRun into a frenzy.

10

I’m a pretty good ultra runner. I came 3rd in my AG in LyonSainteLyon last year, this is one of the biggest ultra runs in the world in terms of participants, I did the longest 100 mile option (160km). I come from a cycling and triathlon background, but have now competed in 7 Ultra’s between 60 and 80k, 3 between 100-130k and one 160k. I mainly do pretty low key events, but normally finish in top 10 overall

I will take some more time later to answer more comprehensively, however, you can combine triathlons and ultra running, the training is pretty similar - the most important thing is to have a very solid level of base fitness

Biggest differences
You can walk in an ultra
You will lose your toe nails
Your quads will be screaming
You probably want poles
The ultra running community is awesome but very strange

Thanks, Matt. I look forward to it.

Note, I’m 55…and, I’m not really doing tri these days. I’m currently running 45mpw (and cycle randomly for about another 50-75)…and, ramping back up to my normal 65-75 mpw. I’ve done high mileage in the past…averaging 110mpw for ~5 months before ramping back down to 70-ish to focus on shorter races. I’m unlikely to do anything longer than 50k…as that sounds stupid enough.

I haven’t fully researched all the courses, but what I saw briefly was ~350-700 ft ascent every 10km or so. Most places in Texas don’t afford anything sustained, so I’d expect most of these courses are lots of shorter repeats rather than one long hill per loop.

I have a couple options for trails nearby, and I have a place where I typically do hill repeats, already. The hills are short, but its a one mile stretch with 3 hills (50ft ascent each), 2 miles from home. I typically run over there and just run back and forth on this stretch until I can’t do any more then…wobble home.

@dcpinsson: I always run with an Osprey hydration pack on all runs over an hour.

@nordicskier: I’m sure there are forums…but, I can barely keep up with ST these days. I’m unlikely to fully convert into an ultra-runner…but, this series sounds interesting (a chance to see some parts of the state that I haven’t). I know how to train for road running from 5km - Marry…I just don’t know how much ultra-specific training is advisable, and what that should look like…or, what to plan for/expect during the race itself.

11

Biggest differences
You can walk in an ultra

As an ultrarunning friend of mine who has crewed Badwater three times, finished two, and has a bunch of 100s to her credit says: “Hundred Milers are all Gallowalking festivals”

The ultra running community is awesome but very strange

I’m a street-racer myself, but (other than Slowtwitch) my favorite running podcasts are Ultra-centric

Ten Junk Miles
Road Dog Podcast
Beer On The Run

This one is a new find, but I recently listened to this episode where Run-Comic/IG Personality, “Worlds Funniest Runner,” Laura Green, basically roasts & gets roasted by Ultrarunners

https://open.spotify.com/...lwAMHsEcQV3c5A8ohNJa
.

12

thanks…

I need some new podcast fodder. I tend to binge a podcast-genre until I’m caught up on all…then I have nothing to listen to. I’ve exhausted my current crop, en genre.

13

I quit doing tri in 2019 and since have focused on running (marathon focus) with lots of biking to supplement fitness. In 2020 decided to go longer. Did a road loop challenge first (55 miles) then a trail 50k a month later. Was the first time I’d ever run off road and Won that race and didn’t eat dirt. Since then I’ve done done 5 more trail 50K, a 50 mile and 100 mile on trail and a 100K and 100 mile on the road. I’ve yet to run off road other than in the races I’ve done. Mileage is mileage but if I had trails near by I’d definitely run on them. Main thing is to get lots of hill work in to build those quads. And, of course, pacing will be much different off road.

14

Slightly longer reply

Ultra running is mainly about endurance, if you can run a fast marathon, you have plenty of strength in your legs to run a slow 60k ultra. The big difference between an ultra and a marathon is fueling, in an ultra trail run, you need to eat pretty much all the time, on a marathon I eat gels, on an ultra I eat proper food, cakes, sausage rolls, nuts, chips etc, I don’t need the instant energy, I need a slow release of energy over many hours.

In many ways, an Ironman has a pretty good crossover to Ultra trail runs as both take many hours and require good nutrition.

I don’t know what the scene is like in the US, however, in Europe, race directors take great delight in setting courses that are rediculously hard, involve using the narrowest and steepest paths, rocks, tree routes, marshes are what they are looking for. The first time I did an Ultra Trail race, I couldn’t believe that they were sending us down some of the paths that they used, I thought that my navigation was off…my navigation was perfect, it was just that the RD was a sadistic B*****d. Now that I have way more experience, it has become part of the enjoyment.

Road runners tend to have a thing about running too much, trail runners know that it is best to walk the up hills. However, you need to train to walk fast up hill, poles make a huge difference. I used to lose tonnes of time on the hiking sections, so its well worth adding hiking into your training.

Running downhill also requires training, you will quickly blow your quads if you haven’t built up strength. Once your quads are gone, running form collapses and you end up shuffling. Luckily its pretty easy to train - find a big gnarly, steep hill and run up and down it a few times a week on a regular basis. I find that quad strengh disappears pretty rapidly, so its something you need to keep doing.

Running downhill on rough terrain also requires a different technique, a forefoot strike gives way more grip on loose surfaces, you need to keep feet higher so you don’t trip on rocks and routes, you need to be confident to “just let it go” as braking/slowing down costs energy. Poles are really useful on steep descents

Someone mentioned triathletes taking too much kit, this is probably true. Normally there is a mandatory kit list, a minimum amount of water, a survival bag, a waterproof etc. I keep my kit to a minimum, and use the lightest kit I can get hold of. If I can get food and water on the course, I use that in my plan

15

I don’t know what the scene is like in the US, however, in Europe, race directors take great delight in setting courses that are rediculously hard, involve using the narrowest and steepest paths, rocks, tree routes, marshes are what they are looking for. The first time I did an Ultra Trail race, I couldn’t believe that they were sending us down some of the paths that they used, I thought that my navigation was off…my navigation was perfect, it was just that the RD was a sadistic B*****d. Now that I have way more experience, it has become part of the enjoyment.

I was supposed to race the Trail des Hauts Forts in Morzine, France in 2020 before the pandemic shut everything down. 3850m D+ in 51km. Bonkers.

I’ve been looking at 50k/50M races for next year in Canada and USA and most of them seem pretty runnable.
Although I’ve found an Vancouver Island race, the Finlayson Arm Ultra that seems very much like you describe. It’s at the top of my list…

16

The ultra running community is awesome but very strange

Are you comparing the ultra community to the tri and/or cycling communities or to the “normal” population when you write that the ultra community is very strange? I’ve spent decades in the tri community and haven’t had any thoughts that the ultra running community is strange since getting more interested in ultras in the past four years.

17

The triathlon community is definitely the strangest.

18

The ultra running community is awesome but very strange

Are you comparing the ultra community to the tri and/or cycling communities or to the “normal” population when you write that the ultra community is very strange? I’ve spent decades in the tri community and haven’t had any thoughts that the ultra running community is strange since getting more interested in ultras in the past four years.

Strange cause they won’t do XC races… But you can just run before and after.

19

I’m also interested in an Ultra in 2024. After marathons and full-distance Ironman races through 2010, I gave a 50-miler some serious consideration in 2012. The problem was that my interest was piqued only 6 weeks before the summer race, so practically, I couldn’t do it. I hadn’t done a run of longer than 10m since that last IM in August, 2010. I swam lots of OWS and completed a solo supported 12m swim.

I was told that training is less intensive, even though the long runs are longer. Just run controlled efforts with the idea of just learning to metabolize for that long. Running slower also helps avoid the injuries.

I’m looking at the option of one or the other regional 50k/50m in April. Once I got it in my head, I went out for a slow, shuffling 15k, and enjoyed it. No real emphasis on the run other than going slowly. I figured that finishing whatever training distance is more important than any time goal, and running slowly means I’ll end up not feeling sore the rest of the day or during the following days. Most of my runs since then have been relaxed and I generally feel really good after.

I’ve read training plans that don’t involve many consecutive days of runs, and little or no speedwork. It’s lots less demanding mentally, physically, and emotionally than IM, and probably even than a marathon.

If I do go forward with this, it will be after I take stock of how I do with my routine runs and mixing in long runs (up to 20k) up to the last week of December. I think 1 or 2 20k training days will really get me ahead of the game before the longest training runs in mid-late March.

I have these considerations: I am coming off the placement of 2 coronary stents in March, 2023. I honestly feel very good and my confidence is growing about staying alive during exercise. I’ll be transitioning off Plavix for blood thinning in late March, and possibly the statin by then as well, so I may see a bump in exercise capacity. But I also don’t know how much longer I will be able to run. I am developing a bunion on my right foot (thank you genetics and my Mom). I obviously can’t have surgery while on Plavix, so I have to wait until that’s over. So, I feel that if the bunion and surgery are inevitable, I might as well just go for it while I still can, and let surgery happen. If I require surgery, and I am never able to run again, I might as well go out with a bang.

The decisions are: Ultra- yes or no AND if yes, 50k or 50m.

20

The triathlon community is definitely the strangest.

#MakeRunningWeirdAgain
#MakeRunnersWeirdAgain
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