T100 Triathlon World Tour (PTO 2024)

Triathlon Forum
161

Yes it seems a small few will make all the money, is already this way but will be even more so. Everyone else is potentially locked out of the series and decent money for their careers now due to the skewed points system//

This doesnt make any sense to me. There is a whole other group of pros that are going to make really great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one. And then you have another mostly separate group making pretty good money racing the ITU circuit and getting national funding. Then there is another couple million in the super league series. And on top of all that, you have Roth and several other stand alone races pros can do to earn a living. It literally is the best time ever in our sport for the most pros to be able to not only make a living, but for many of the top earners, put money away and become self sufficient after triathlon…

All this talk of just a few are getting all the dollars is just nonsense, do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures???

162

I think they are doing a little bit of hedging.

I mean they can’t basically “cut off” anyone else but the 16-20 in the PTO series right now because well, there may be some better athletes out there. So I think the bulk of the money is going into the T100 series and then the end of year “bonuses” goes to anyone. But then again if you do most of T100 races and those are the “best” scoring races, then by default those athletes have an advantage over the IM series athletes in terms of schedule strength.

So I think it kinda allows for this to obviously be the T100 show but also some “relegation” ability as well.

163

Well the Olympic athletes have already been given an shorter contract demands, and I get it. If you are in the 70.3 or IM validation role, your set. You can race the PTO, train/jog 2 70.3’s and that will NQ (or train/jog an IM to NQ/KQ)

So like Sam Laidlow, no shit he’s going to race all the big boy events, because his KQ is pretty easy. Just “jog” 'an IM or “jog” 2 70.3.

But my point is still not that you can or can’t do it. It’s that the T100 series is going to be top level of racing almost assured. There are going to be handful of guys who automatically are “all in” on it, and thus those guys will almost have any advantage over others who try and max out their race schedule.

So my point isn’t a matter of can it or can’t it be done. Of course a handful of pro’s are going to race as many events as they can. I’m just saying we now have 1 and now with the IM series, 2 high level LC events that you just “jogging through it” isn’t going to help with your PTO ranking for '25.

Years ago when WTCS changed their scoring policy, they removed the 1 day “world championship” to a series scoring system. It irked guys like AB because he was such a great 1 day racer, and also because AB frankly quit racing the “full series” after like '13. He would show up handful of times and skip races even if healthy cus it served no real purpose. So the athletes who race a full PTO schedule and score their top scores and then offset/block others will have a much better success than anyone who thinks they can race the “minimum” races so they can then go race other opportunities. That’s what I think will end up happening here. And the hook is the guranteed '25 contracts that only 10 get. So those spots will be very very valuable to race for.

You know it’s really funny as this has been done before; it’s essentially LC’s version of WTS/WTCS. Finally in long course racing the best will be competing against the best year round, something that ITU has been doing for years.

I think if any lessons are to be learned from ITU it is this.

  1. Review your prize money every 2 or 3 years to increase with inflation. The WTCS prize money of $18k/$12k/$8k race - $30k/$22k/$16 GF and $80k/$55k/$38k Bonus pool, has more or less remained static for over 10 years. Brooks do you think this might be the kick up the arse for the ITU to review prize money to potentially stop guys like Yee and Wilde leaving?

  2. Don’t over reach on the number of races. The WTCS in 2015 was 10 races and athletes were not happy with the number of races, or the torturous travel due to the sequencing of the events. I think 7 or 8 events in total is the maximum for a sustainable race series.

  3. Get venues that actually have a good age group weekend and have a triathlon culture that will make things pretty sustainable (I’m thinking Yokohama or Hamburg here). Otherwise these 3-5 year contracts wont be worth the paper they are written on.

  4. Mix the bike courses up a bit. ITU world cup venues are so so much better than the actual premier race series. Let’s reward the best cyclists not just the strongest cyclists.

164

  1. I don’t think WT has the funds to meet inflation even with the “successful” WTCS series. So I understand the lack of prize purse increases has the athletes pissed off, I just think it’s a lack of funding and not from some organization not willing to share the funds. There were “rumors” that even Hamburg was going to pull out of hosting (turned out to be false), which I think is now $2mi on the host city in fees now. So I don’t know that there is a ton of money being made in the WTCS series anymore.

  2. With the news that the pto “contracts” are basically per race appearance fees, this will help and hurt some people. I think this will help the guys finishing in the “MOP” and quietly keep them in contention with the T10 guranteed contracts for '25 vs the handful of athletes who think/assume will race the min pto schedule to also allow for other races. So the PTO also incentivived the need to show up and race pto races with their “marketing” deals (I believe that was the term Sam called the contracts this year).

  3. This is the biggest issue that PTO struggles with. Is it a matter of building your own race weekend vs “piggy backing” off an already established race venue + race setup.

  4. I think a lot like WTCS now, it’s always going to be venue specific. The WTCS bid requirements and the World Cup / Conti Cup level of host requirements aren’t even in the same time zone. So thus boring urban race venues are the norm on WTCS while the “harder” courses are always the hard to travel to world cups it seems like. Miami speedway likely won’t have any bike drama, neither will London course that apparently will likely be used. So I think there’s not a ton of “hard” bike lets we are looking at anytime soon. But I think there’s an ability to cause a little more “run fatigue” with the 20m gaps, so there is that; vs the straight up draft pack last 30km of bikes like at WTCS events.

165

  1. I don’t think WT has the funds to meet inflation even with the “successful” WTCS series. So I understand the lack of prize purse increases has the athletes pissed off, I just think it’s a lack of funding and not from some organization not willing to share the funds. There were “rumors” that even Hamburg was going to pull out of hosting (turned out to be false), which I think is now $2mi on the host city in fees now. So I don’t know that there is a ton of money being made in the WTCS series anymore.

  2. With the news that the pto “contracts” are basically per race appearance fees, this will help and hurt some people. I think this will help the guys finishing in the “MOP” and quietly keep them in contention with the T10 guranteed contracts for '25 vs the handful of athletes who think/assume will race the min pto schedule to also allow for other races. So the PTO also incentivived the need to show up and race pto races with their “marketing” deals (I believe that was the term Sam called the contracts this year).

  3. This is the biggest issue that PTO struggles with. Is it a matter of building your own race weekend vs “piggy backing” off an already established race venue + race setup.

  4. I think a lot like WTCS now, it’s always going to be venue specific. The WTCS bid requirements and the World Cup / Conti Cup level of host requirements aren’t even in the same time zone. So thus boring urban race venues are the norm on WTCS while the “harder” courses are always the hard to travel to world cups it seems like.

1.+ 2. On prize money I am extremely sceptical whether this is sustainable for the T100 series. I’m not really sure 100km races are actually gonna be any more or any less exciting as a WTCS race. So eventually this thing is gonna run out of steam or more likely come to a similar spot that WTCS finds itself in.

  1. If you have time then build your own event. But if you don’t, and they don’t mark my words, then I think piggy backing and partnering is the only option.

One other thing to add. I’m not pointing any fingers, but I think if they are really trying to commercialise this, then a doping contingency plan needs to be in place. Cause there will be positives.

166

then a doping contingency plan needs to be in place. Cause there will be positives.

I’m far too much of a cynic and realize our shit paying sport will never amount to anything real in the fight against doping. That even if tons of shanigans is going on, the chances of multiple positives is likely very rare.

167

then a doping contingency plan needs to be in place. Cause there will be positives.

I’m far too much of a cynic and realize our shit paying sport will never amount to anything real in the fight against doping. That even if tons of shanigans is going on, the chances of multiple positives is likely very rare.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Just a feeling…

But yeh even with potential positives, I too am cynical there’ll be a fuck load getting away with it. Same goes for Athletics, Cycling, Swimming.

168

Yes it seems a small few will make all the money, is already this way but will be even more so. Everyone else is potentially locked out of the series and decent money for their careers now due to the skewed points system//

This doesnt make any sense to me. There is a whole other group of pros that are going to make really great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one. And then you have another mostly separate group making pretty good money racing the ITU circuit and getting national funding. Then there is another couple million in the super league series. And on top of all that, you have Roth and several other stand alone races pros can do to earn a living. It literally is the best time ever in our sport for the most pros to be able to not only make a living, but for many of the top earners, put money away and become self sufficient after triathlon…

All this talk of just a few are getting all the dollars is just nonsense, do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures???
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Yep,this is by far the best time ever to be a Pro triathlete. There will be “B” athletes this year making more money than they ever could five years ago and they will be riding the wave for as long as they can.I’d even go as far as to say that the T100 series has actually thrown a lifeline to the dying careers of several high profile people. Some will benefit from being included in the PTO series and some will benefit from the top tier athletes not doing the Ironman series.It is a win all around .

169

She also covered some routes in Ventura county that could hypothetically be used.
I seriously doubt that PTO will be allowed to put on a race in Malibu given the shenanigans with the Superleague/Epstein race thing.

170

Yes it seems a small few will make all the money, is already this way but will be even more so. Everyone else is potentially locked out of the series and decent money for their careers now due to the skewed points system// This doesnt make any sense to me. There is a whole other group of pros that are going to make really great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one. . . . And on top of all that, you have Roth and several other stand alone races pros can do to earn a living. It literally is the best time ever in our sport for the most pros to be able to not only make a living, but for many of the top earners, put money away and become self sufficient after triathlon.
All this talk of just a few are getting all the dollars is just nonsense, do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures???Yep,this is by far the best time ever to be a Pro triathlete. There will be “B” athletes this year making more money than they ever could five years ago and they will be riding the wave for as long as they can.I’d even go as far as to say that the T100 series has actually thrown a lifeline to the dying careers of several high profile people. Some will benefit from being included in the PTO series and some will benefit from the top tier athletes not doing the Ironman series. It is a win all around.Agree with Monty and TU wrt the several groups of athletes that stand to make good money. Clearly the contracted T100 athletes. Also, but significantly less (qv), those in the #20-#30 long distance capable in the IM Series. And because the top PTO ranked 30 will not race any other races (more or less) all the #31-#100 athletes have plenty of opportunity to earn prize money from all the non-IM Series races, as well as Roth/Challenge/Clash ones.

“great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one” Well no. Take, as an example, the T100 athlete who finishes #10 in all their 6 races and finishes #10 in the final T100 standings (and no other race earnings). With a (say) $90k contract they will earn in total $155k. Compare that with an athlete who finishes #5 in their five IM Series races and #5 overall: $100k. NB an athlete who finishes** **#10 in their five IM Series races and #10 overall will earn ‘not much’. https://t100triathlon.com/pro-series-explainer/ https://www.ironman.com/...es-race-series#bonus https://files.constantcontact.com/...4e0-db1ef125530f.pdf
“do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures?” I looked at the 50+ best ranked US athlete: they seemed to have won zero prize money. Professional? (There are 107 listed)

Perhaps Thorsten could do a piece on the 51-100 ‘top’ earners from 2023? Focus on the ‘many’ rather than the ‘few’.
https://www.trirating.com/deep-dive-into-the-2023-triathlon-money-list/
(Athletes like Ryf, Chevalier and Long made circa $100k last year (prize money plus PTO EoY bonus).

“the dying careers of several high profile people” Who had you in mind @ThailandUltras? Bit disrespectful to T100’s Gomez and Brownlee. McNamee per’aps? Or are you saying Haug’s career is on the decline now she’s 40+, or that Ryf would’ve given up without T100? Or are trying to say Sanders without saying ‘Sanders’? In which latter case the ‘all encompassing’ thread is that way > > >

171

Yes it seems a small few will make all the money, is already this way but will be even more so. Everyone else is potentially locked out of the series and decent money for their careers now due to the skewed points system// This doesnt make any sense to me. There is a whole other group of pros that are going to make really great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one. . . . And on top of all that, you have Roth and several other stand alone races pros can do to earn a living. It literally is the best time ever in our sport for the most pros to be able to not only make a living, but for many of the top earners, put money away and become self sufficient after triathlon.
All this talk of just a few are getting all the dollars is just nonsense, do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures???Yep,this is by far the best time ever to be a Pro triathlete. There will be “B” athletes this year making more money than they ever could five years ago and they will be riding the wave for as long as they can.I’d even go as far as to say that the T100 series has actually thrown a lifeline to the dying careers of several high profile people. Some will benefit from being included in the PTO series and some will benefit from the top tier athletes not doing the Ironman series. It is a win all around.Agree with Monty and TU wrt the several groups of athletes that stand to make good money. Clearly the contracted T100 athletes. Also, but significantly less (qv), those in the #20-#30 long distance capable in the IM Series. And because the top PTO ranked 30 will not race any other races (more or less) all the #31-#100 athletes have plenty of opportunity to earn prize money from all the non-IM Series races, as well as Roth/Challenge/Clash ones.

“great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one” Well no. Take, as an example, the T100 athlete who finishes #10 in all their 6 races and finishes #10 in the final T100 standings (and no other race earnings). With a (say) $90k contract they will earn in total $155k. Compare that with an athlete who finishes #5 in their five IM Series races and #5 overall: $100k. NB an athlete who finishes** **#10 in their five IM Series races and #10 overall will earn ‘not much’.
“do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures?” I looked at the 50+ best ranked US athlete: they seemed to have won zero prize money. Professional?

Perhaps Thorsten could do a piece on the 51-100 ‘top’ earners from 2023? Focus on the ‘many’ rather than the ‘few’.

“the dying careers of several high profile people” Who had you in mind @ThailandUltras? Bit disrespectful to T100’s Gomez and Brownlee. McNamee per’aps? Or are you saying Haug’s career is on the decline now she’s 40+, or that Ryf would’ve given up without T100? Or are trying to say Sanders without saying ‘Sanders’? In which latter case the ‘all encompassing’ thread is that way > > >

The top 20 will make plenty of money guaranteed by PTO. But they were already. The #20-40(50?) are the real winners, via the other opportunities around (which are better paid than before in terms of money, but not depth, and there are less of those races actually, thus they will concentrate those racers).
The #50+ was struggling before, and is not doing any better now. We can argue whether they should or not, but we’re talking #80 making losses, which is very far from “#1000 making 6 figures”. Growing the sports? (See UCI moving to minimum salaries…)

What I’m personally disappointed about is not the lack of money, but rather the circle closing around a top few, and the lack of opportunities to race the world bests. The gap between podium at amateur races easily and professional races is just widening, with no space in-between. I never made a living out of triathlon, reached #155 at my best right after 9th in Roth, but enjoyed lining up at Frankfurt between Jan and Patrick, riding 50k with Sebi in Roth, and many more chances to get challenged by the world champions… This looks unlikely this year.
(I understand many A-pros and fans think differently, but by talking with people ranked ~ #80-300 this sentiment is quite present as well)

172

I certainly agree with your assessment, in many aspects.

Statement #1: PTO budget for T100 participation money (appearance fee + accommodation being covered), race prize money and bonus prize money is >2-4x bigger than what IM offers to pros. Then there’s also the PTO end-of-year bonus and the IM prize money outside of their series.

Statement #2: Sanders would’ve had his ass handed over to him every PTO race. His PTO race results have been: #7, #11, #21 (#20, if you strike through Collin Chartier). His #11 in PTO US Open remains his best scoring result of 2023. This just isn’t his distance to shine. He might get and accept a wild card though, a proper win-win situation for both PTO (media attention) and LS ($).

173

What I’m personally disappointed about is not the lack of money, but rather the circle closing around a top few, and the lack of opportunities to race the world bests.

The only events that is “closed” is now the current PTO series right? Hell now that the IM series is a real thing, this is actually the opportunity for long course athletes to race each other much more often. So I think what we’ve now done is actually create events where the world’s best are racing more often. If that means the fringe guys get pinched out, so be it. But the overall health of professional ranking is much greater now than ever before. As far as I know the IM pro series is open to any professional, so now you actually have the chance to race “world class” fields in non-world championship races more often than just the world championship races.

(Of course this is all on thin ice it seems if PTO goes away, we all think IM Series as it is now will “go away” as well).

174

What I’m personally disappointed about is not the lack of money, but rather the circle closing around a top few, and the lack of opportunities to race the world bests.

The only events that is “closed” is now the current PTO series right? Hell now that the IM series is a real thing, this is actually the opportunity for long course athletes to race each other much more often. So I think what we’ve now done is actually create events where the world’s best are racing more often. If that means the fringe guys get pinched out, so be it. But the overall health of professional ranking is much greater now than ever before. As far as I know the IM pro series is open to any professional, so now you actually have the chance to race “world class” fields in non-world championship races more often than just the world championship races.

(Of course this is all on thin ice it seems if PTO goes away, we all think IM Series as it is now will “go away” as well).

I have Vitoria and Frankfurt on my schedule. We’ll see how it turns out

175

“great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one” Well no.//

Not sure why you cherry picked certain places to make an argument against me, my statement was an overall $$ one. Think if you look at the winner of the ironman series, it will stack up pretty nice in the grand scheme of top earners this year.

And if what you say is true(will stipulate to your math and research, thanks), then that just means more folks will make some money vs just the top taking most in the PTO series. I see that complaint a lot, and in this thread even, so there is that.

176

“great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one” Well no.//
Not sure why you cherry picked certain places to make an argument against me, my statement was an overall $$ one. Think if you look at the winner of the ironman series, it will stack up pretty nice in the grand scheme of top earners this year.

And if what you say is true(will stipulate to your math and research, thanks), then that just means more folks will make some money vs just the top taking most in the PTO series. I see that complaint a lot, and in this thread even, so there is that. Sorry @Monty your line is dead right. I was using your “literally as much as” comparison to share the difference between the earnings available. Last year, one or a few top twenty athletes swept in and scooped the podium winnings (Long, Sanders and fellow US travellers for example) on 70.3s. This year the top twenty will be all in on T100 and the next few on IM Series, and thus there’ll be shedloads of races where the #40+ ranked athletes can travel, race, take wins, make podia, and make money.
Win; win; win.
Cherry picking: “look at the winner of the ironman series” If an athlete can win the IMWC, the 70.3WC and 3 more Series races and thus win the IM Series they might win $455k (we’re talking Ryf at the top of her game (?2017)). Second in everything wins $277k; Third in everything wins $184k.

If a T100 athlete won her 6 races she would win $455.
So as you say “literally the same” for the winner (on those unlikely performance/results assumptions). However T100 2nd in all 6 and series: $336k, 3rd = $262k.
I suggest there’s going to be some doubling up for the IM capable and aspirational athletes. Managing the load will be a serious challenge: I just hope their bodies can take it so that they’re racing come the T100 Grand Final and Taupō.

177

I personally like the fact that racers like Spivey are putting the Olympic race first, no matter how much money long course organizations throw at them.

(Paradoxically, I also like the fact that she has signed up. Most exciting name on the list for me).

one thing that PTO seems to be doing well (and something i’ve been really crying out for IM to do for a long time) is making good use of wildcards.

they’re not too precious about the whole thing, and are saying that at every race there will be a small number of athletes added to the start list to build interest/excitement. to me, it’s a great idea. you can recognize that these races are for entertainment and add interesting new athletes without turning it into a circus.

your move, IM.

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For actual “world championships” I’m all for having everyone qualify the same way. Maybe some very rare exceptions but for the most part, for an actual 1 day world championships, spots imo don’t deserve to be given as “wild cards”. Pto imo is still very much more closer to SLT setup currently than an “real” championship like iMWC. So if they’re “regular season” events they want to invite whoever cool.

But when it’s an actual world championships I’m not really in favor of letting athletes in who didn’t really follow the same qualifying process, (I know validation allows some to AQ easier but they still have to race events instead of just showing up on start list + Olympic champion gets an auto start).

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For actual “world championships” I’m all for having everyone qualify the same way. Maybe some very rare exceptions but for the most part, for an actual 1 day world championships, spots imo don’t deserve to be given as “wild cards”. Pto imo is still very much more closer to SLT setup currently than an “real” championship like iMWC. So if they’re “regular season” events they want to invite whoever cool.

But when it’s an actual world championships I’m not really in favor of letting athletes in who didn’t really follow the same qualifying process, (I know validation allows some to AQ easier but they still have to race events instead of just showing up on start list + Olympic champion gets an auto start).

well world triathlon calls it
‘the official World Championship tour of long distance triathlon’. when they really mean middle distance triathlon.
iam prety sure super league does not have world champs title . the arena games i think might have some sort of title.

https://www.triathlon.org/news/article/pto_and_world_triathlon_launch_the_t100_triathlon_world_tour

and dont forget even world triathlon has 2 invitational slots for each gender for the oly games

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What I mean is that the T100 is essentially “regular” events and only the GF or the world championship actually would qualify as anything “meaningful” beyond a regular season type of event. I mentioned the exceptions, but this idea that you should fill wild cards to get the best viewing for a world championship type of 1 day event I don’t think is the best approach. If you have a qualification process, I’m not really in favor of pulling favors for athletes who “didn’t qualify”, unless it’s extradordinary circumstances (winning an IM with 100m to and fan attacks you, etc when it was clear you would have won it; and yes the Olympic Champion normally qualifies as this type of circumstance because for the most part it’s too specialized these days to try and do both really really well; Norwegians withstanding).