I was looking through an older (and exhausting) thread on breathing frequency and noticed a few references to Russell Mark of USA Swimming and elite swim coaches Mike Bottom and David Marsh. The gist: “We don’t look for symmetry in freestyle” and “the fastest swimmers gallop asymmetrically.” It seems that most sports with alternating movements clearly favor symmetry over asymmetry (skating, rowing, cycling, cross country skiing…I’m not an expert in any of those things!) We also favor it in backstroke, breaststroke and butterfly. I’m not so much interested in observations along the lines of “fast people do it so it must be right,” or “important people said it so it must be right.” Fast and important people have done and said lots of things over the arc of my swimming/coaching career, much of which we now look back on as charming misconceptions (high head position, 2-beat crossover kick, belly flop dives, no-glide breaststroke.) I think breathing to the side in freestyle is probably the biggest impediment to a symmetrical stroke (although by far the best option to get air). I would be curious to know if the poster children for gallopers (Michael Phelps, Jason Lezak) would gallop if they used a snorkel. I know Marsh and Bottom are primarily known as sprint coaches, and also wonder if there is more galloping in the 200 meters and down crew and more symmetry in the 400 meters and up crowd (seems to be the case.)
Long winded post, I know, but wondering what others make of this. There are some bright swim people on this forum, so I welcome your thoughts. I’m skeptical of concluding that asymmetry is the best way because some see it as the current way. Swimming is one of the few sports where we continue to break world records, and most of that has to do with swimming faster rather than technological advances. And we swim faster because we continue to refine our thoughts on what it means to do it better or more “correctly.” My hunch is we will continue to whittle away the outliers in stroke mechanics and eventually come to fairly standardized models of ideal swimming technique…many years down the road. Land-based sports with richer and more reliable research data seem to bear this out.
But we are not symmetrical. Two very different halves of our brain control each side of our body. Speed skating and figure skating are asymmetrical sports (going around the rink counter clockwise, spinning the same direction - if you see figure skaters, they can generally spin much better one direction and the particular jumps they only do it the same direction), as is cross country skiing. Even track running is asymmetrical, always running counterclockwise (just like speed skating), and this most likely has to do with the natural asymmetry of most people (right handedness - left brain dominance).
A couple of things: phelps and lezak were not coached by sprint coaches. By 07 lezak was self coached and I think he would say he was his own coach all along. So I wouldn’t conflate sprinting with loping.
To your larger point: the aim isn’t assymetry. The aim is to breath. And I think - to the degree that breathing causes asymmetry you just deal with it. This isn’t a chicken /egg question.
Another thing to consider is kick pattern. A lot of swimmers use a 4 beat kick. Just using myself as an example : I can swim a 400 with a 4 beat kick but I cannot do a 6 beat. So my options are the symmetrical 2 beat or asymmetrical 4 beat.
So would phelps lope if he had a snorkel? Good question. I saw him do a 50 yard time trial (no breather) but didn’t think of this at the time. Maybe someone can dig it up.
I’m not a masterful or blazing fast swimmer in the pool swim world, but I can tell you what I know of the fastest swimmers I have known over the years in triathlon. Of the two speed mavens I’m thinking of neither one of them are symmetrical. One is a current triathlete and is a 52.xx non-wetsuit IM swimmer and swam in h.s… The other swam distance at Auburn for Dave Marsh and doesn’t do much of anything sport wise now. Quite honestly if they put swim videos up here a great many of the ST swim critics would have 500 character posts talking about how poor their stroke was and how to improve.
I don’t race with symmetry b/c quite simply it’s not my fastest way to race. In training I will mix up my breathing and breathe to one side on the way down and the other way on the return length. I tried to swim symmetrically for years b/c I heard it was ‘best’ and ‘fastest’. There very may well be a technical reason why I don’t swim my fastest with balanced symmetry on both sides, but I never figured it out. In the end I let two things be the judge. Whatever made my breathing feel natural and unmanufactured…and the clock. My stroke is shoulder driven on the breathing side and hip driven on the other. I can switch that shoulder/hip when I want to breathe to the other side, but the type of symmetry that seems to be the goal of a lot of triathletes and coaches(mirror image on either side) I just don’t use effectively for my fastest.
Not saying symmetry is a bad thing, not saying it may not be the best way. Just have not been able to make it fast for me and the guys I consider fast that are pals are nowhere near symmetrical.
So I went online and watched one of Russell Mark’s webinars (he is USA Swimming’s National Team High Performance Consultant). I don’t know if it’s the same talk a previous poster referenced. In this one (link below) he clearly did not suggest asymmetry as a desirable quality. His view: it’s likely that breathing creates asymmetry, and is most likely responsible for the “gallop.” In fact, his opinion was younger club swimmers who emulate the galloping style (they want to swim like Mike) do this at their peril. (Remember all the little kids running around basketball courts in the 90’s sticking their tongues out like Michael Jordan? That’s not what made him great.) The presenter makes this point at the very end of this fairly long webinar, as in the last minute or so:
There were some posts here on SlowTwitch suggesting galloping as a good thing, and that symmetry may not be very important. That’s not what this particular presenter was suggesting. I would have to hunt down the David Marsh/Mike Bottom presentations to get their take on symmetry vs galloping.
This webinar did have a lot of great advice and supporting video. Well worth a watch if you’re mystified by the whole swimming thing. You’ll get a very detailed look at all aspects of the stroke, including typical variations we see at the elite level. I don’t know that swim coaches (and I am one of them) have done a very good job of agreeing on terms, concepts, priorities, first order principles. If I were a triathlete just starting out I would be utterly confused by all the internet ‘experts.’
I’m not a great swimmer but I swim with some excellent swimmers. I can break them down individually.
4:29 500scy, former 9x D2 AA: one side smooth and high elbow, other side is straight arm. Much more rotation to breathing side (high elbow).
16:20 1650scy: Smooth, 2 beat kicker, breathes bilateral all the time except races. Very even.
1:43 200SCY: I often wonder how he moves through the water at all. One side seems to constantly drop the shoulder but the elbow is somehow still high on the recovery. Other side straight arm recovery.
These are a few examples. I think the moral of the story is that you’ll find your stroke, and it may not be what the textbooks say. If it’s moving you at a good pace, then it’s time to put in the yards and strengthen that technique.
My personal anecdote: A coach tried, incessantly, to get me to breathe bilaterally all the time. I couldn’t. I was extremely slow. So we tried every two cycles, breathing same side. Better, but not great. Breathing every cycle turned out to be my ideal stroke. Now I train that way 95% of the time. I’ve gotten a lot faster, despite not having a “pretty” stroke.
I can see asymmetry as being something akin to ‘handedness,’ perhaps. Maybe I should not have used skating as an example, unless we were talking about skating a straight path versus loops in a rink. There are (or at least should be) some high end running coaches in here–what about distance running along a straight path? Symmetry seems like it would be an ideal goal even if our slightly asymmetrical bodies don’t always cooperate. Is that something coaches look at, analyze, try to correct for imbalances?
If Sun Yang, the current world record holder for 1500 meters in a pool and mostly symmetrical swimmer, were to swim an IronMan distance I estimate he could go a little over 41 minutes. That’s dropping his pace 5 seconds per 100 to account for no walls and a little fudging in case he swims a bit off course. Swimming it in salt water might actually make him faster. If he could sustain his 1500 world record pace he’d cover 2.4 miles in 36 minutes.
In a previous thread someone referenced asymmetry in a talk given by David Marsh (12 NCAA team titles, 89 individual champions, including Cesar Cielo, current world record holder in the 50/100 meters free) and Mike Bottom (head coaching stints at University of Michigan and The Race Club, where he coached Gary Hall, Jr among others.) I haven’t found that presentation anywhere, but am skeptical that triathletes should emulate sprint freestyle technique in the way I think a running coach might have you disregard Usain Bolt’s 200 meter technique if you’re training for a marathon.
This is an interesting discussion.
Symmetry as you are discussing, at this point, is still associated with the rhythm of the arms and hands. Correct? But rhythm can come from many different sources for freestyle and is IMHO one of the top 3 sensations that swimmers should seek for improvement/efficiency.
In terms of being symmetrical the more critical focus should be on symmetrical breathing. IE getting out as much as you are taking in. 99% of aquatic breathing issues have to do with an athletes inability to exhale (land based issue we take into the water). So symmetry can come from the breath. It can come from the hips and shoulders rotating both in volume and velocity. It can come from the relationship of the top of the cervical spine to the base of the pelvis in relation to the surface of the water. It can come from the changes in sight lines and noises you hear in your ears as you swim. And then lastly, I would have an athlete pay attention to the symmetry in the arms and legs (hands and kick). Inside out swimming.
Galloping through the water resembles a long lost action of quadrupedal (mammalian) movement. Powerful sure. But at a cost. If you want to associate swimming and the resistance of the water akin to riding up a hill… would you advocate a cyclist have a powerful ASYMMETRICAL pedaling stroke then NOT pedal as he/she reloaded for another explosive pedaling action? would this be an efficient use of energy? I don’t think I would but I am open to the argument. Consistent symmetrical delivery of power, thus minimizing the time one would slow down between impulses, seems much better than a set of consecutive large impulses that come at a big energy expenditure with more downtime between them.
I hope that I’m explaining this well.
My thought is that the asymmetry comes in because of the breath, but the breath happens along the centreline for the other strokes, so there is no real reason to introduce any asymmetry in the pull for the other strokes. It isn’t that asymmetricality is necessarily “better”, or should even be taught, but a bazillion hard metres in the pool will result in swimmers gravitating towards the degree of asymmetry that works for their body, stroke style, and event distance. eg, Yannick Agnel doesn’t lope much at all. Lochte is somewhere inbetween. You are probably right in that distance events would be more symmetrical than the 100 / 200. That’s because of the power requirements of getting that high out of the water are very fatiguing. If getting rid of the asymmetrical stroke in the shorter distances means that the swimmer doesn’t pull as well, then that’s bad. Ultimately, it is all on a case by case basis.
50 swimmers often don’t take a breath at all. They are usually quite symmetrical for the 50. So, Phelps and Lezak probably don’t lope at all if they use a snorkel. It’s the act of breathing that brings that in.
I appreciate the thoughtful replies. One of my big picture goals is to steer my thinking and swimming priorities towards what would be considered “ideal” forms. I don’t think we are anywhere near that point in swimming. We still see enough variation at the elite level to make me think “we really don’t know what’s best…yet.” I think that day is coming. And I think we’ll look back at phrases like “whatever works for you” or “everyone is a special snowflake, just hop into lane 4 and find your stroke” as the ramblings of primitive man.
In most areas of human movement the differences among very elite performers are quite minuscule. Think archery. Not much wiggle room there. Swimming is so wildly free form that it is hard to know which movements are responsible for success and which ones undermine it. It is why I try not to be overly enamored with any one swimmer, as they are really a sample size of 1. As swim coaches, we often jump on the bandwagon of the latest hot swimmer–Biondi, Popov, Thorpe, Sun Yang, Ledecky. It’s almost like they are shiny distractions from the big picture. I’m more interested in patterns and templates.
I do my best to contribute what I think is useful information here for struggling athletes. The post that facilitated this one seemed to disregard symmetry as a desirable quality. My gut tells me this is bad advice that ultimately leads to compromised performance. If I were Phelps’s coach, would I have the courage of my convictions to correct / reduce the gallop? Should he swim more Agnel-like? If a 12 year old came loping down your pool a la Phelps, would you let it slide or fix it? Russell Marks, the USA Swimming webinar guy, took great pains to be overly diplomatic with his advice. I almost felt offended by the pre-emptive apology before each bit of analysis. “C’mon, man, you’re the technique guru for the governing body of our sport. Don’t be so wishy-washy. Tell me what you think and stop worrying that you might offend someone who thinks differently.”
As for what I mean by symmetry, certainly symmetry of movement pattern, but also rhythmic symmetry (I’m a big fan of using Tempo Trainers to assist with this.) I think breathing is the most disruptive act in freestyle, and don’t believe bilateral breathing induces balance and symmetry for that reason. Breathing creates errors, it doesn’t fix them. The top google hits for “bilateral breathing” suggest otherwise. I think they are wrong. How’s that for not being wishy-washy? haha
I somewhat agree, and disagree as well. Hows that for wishywashy?
I think that R. Mark does a very good job of breaking down what he sees the top performers doing, and from that we can start parsing out what matters to fast swimming and what does not. Where styles diverge a lot, but people still swim fast, then we can probably say that particular aspect does not really matter. There are some things that all fast swimmers do, those things are important. Mark talked about the importance of having a relaxed, wide recovery. All fast swimmers do that, so it is probably important to reinforce in developing swimmers. pushing water back, grabbing it early is important. the finish of the stroke is less important. and so forth.
when talking about symmetry, remember that the breathing itself is an asymmetrical motion in freestyle. so by introducing another asymmetry, then net sum of those is that the stroke, taken as a whole, becomes more symmetrical.
I don’t see it as a “special snowflake”, it is more that different people have different bodies. Some have very strong kicks, others have very strong pulls, others have awesome underwaters, and you want to maximize the total contribution of all of that.
There is less room for variation in something like sprinting in Track & Field, but you still see some variation. Different athletes will take a different number of steps before they are fully upright after the start, they lean slightly different amounts as they run, etc.
I somewhat agree, and disagree as well. Hows that for wishywashy?
I think that R. Mark does a very good job of breaking down what he sees the top performers doing, and from that we can start parsing out what matters to fast swimming and what does not. Where styles diverge a lot, but people still swim fast, then we can probably say that particular aspect does not really matter. There are some things that all fast swimmers do, those things are important. Mark talked about the importance of having a relaxed, wide recovery. All fast swimmers do that, so it is probably important to reinforce in developing swimmers. pushing water back, grabbing it early is important. the finish of the stroke is less important. and so forth.
**when talking about symmetry, remember that the breathing itself is an asymmetrical motion in freestyle. so by introducing “another asymmetry”, then net sum of those is that the stroke, taken as a whole, becomes more symmetrical. **
I don’t see it as a “special snowflake”, it is more that different people have different bodies. Some have very strong kicks, others have very strong pulls, others have awesome underwaters, and you want to maximize the total contribution of all of that.
There is less room for variation in something like sprinting in Track & Field, but you still see some variation. Different athletes will take a different number of steps before they are fully upright after the start, they lean slightly different amounts as they run, etc.
the breath is asymmetry #1. the “lope” is asymmetry #2. the net is that the body-line might be straighter in the water than if there wasn’t a lope there.
the breath is asymmetry #1. the “lope” is asymmetry #2. the net is that the body-line might be straighter in the water than if there wasn’t a lope there.
Ahhhh, i was blind but now i see. Had not thought of separating the “lope” from the breath b/c they seem to occur at more or less the same time but, OTOH, since lots of swimmers do not lope, i guess we can and perhaps should separate the two.