Just trying to gauge if I’m in the right ballpark or not with regards to the ‘fisty-swim’ drill, in which you make tight fists and swim freestyle to try and teach yourself to better use your forearm rather than just your palm as a surface for propulsion.
For me when I do this I go slower by 7-10sec/100, mainly because I feel like I’m ‘undergeared’ for speed, analogous to trying to go fast on flat road on a bike while in a small gear. If I really propeller it like a sprint effort I can get 2-3 sec from my normal speed but it def takes more aerobic effort, as I’d expect.
I’d imagine you folks who can swim 1:15-1:20 for distance would still be sub 1:25 with the fisty swim? Or do you lose more than that?
I do these drills occasionally, as part of recovery and/or technique focused sets. I usually do them as “pulls” (with snorkel and pull buoy) at a relatively moderate effort (not hard, not easy). I’m usually around 3-5 sec slower per 100 at the same RPE level. When I first started doing them, that was higher (probably 7-10 sec). The thing I struggled with initially (and still do when I don’t do them consistently) is the effect on body position - I will tend to not have good alignment and stability with fist-swimming if I’m out of practice.
I do these drills occasionally, as part of recovery and/or technique focused sets. I usually do them as “pulls” (with snorkel and pull buoy) at a relatively moderate effort (not hard, not easy). I’m usually around 3-5 sec slower per 100 at the same RPE level. When I first started doing them, that was higher (probably 7-10 sec). The thing I struggled with initially (and still do when I don’t do them consistently) is the effect on body position - I will tend to not have good alignment and stability with fist-swimming if I’m out of practice.
That’s a good point re: stability and aligment, and one that I wasn’t considering nearly enough. In retrospect, I absolutely have slightly worsened stability and alignment with fisty swimming as well, and in contrast, with paddles, I feel super stable and well aligned - and I also go a lot faster (like 7-10sec/100 faster with paddles!)
Ok, ex college swimmer here. Been working hard to get in solid swim shape after 2020 knocked us all out of the pool.
A few months ago, doing the fist drill was tough. I’m so glad both of you noted the wonky body position - without the counterbalance of your pull, if your core isn’t engaged properly, you’re not going to be engaging your pull sufficiently. That was what I noticed too - my pull was slipping (as expected) but my body position felt sloppy when I was out of shape.
Now, feeling much more in shape, the fist drill isn’t as awful. I wouldn’t ever prescribe 100s of fist, as I think it’s really important to go from pushing just the fist to feeling the whole paddle, but we’ve done quite a bit of 50s at masters recently. 50s fist on the 50 aren’t so bad, I won’t push too hard and cruise in around 42-44, where 50s open hand at the same exertion level are probably 41-42 (RPE 3ish). Haven’t tried fist drill at a higher RPE. Maybe I’ll try that on Wednesday.
I never focus on time goals when doing drills. The point of a drill is to focus on form issues and correcting them. If you were doing to focus on any metric during the fist drill, I’d focus on stroke count more than time. But you really should be paying as much attention to arm and body position as possible.
I never focus on time goals when doing drills. The point of a drill is to focus on form issues and correcting them. If you were doing to focus on any metric during the fist drill, I’d focus on stroke count more than time. But you really should be paying as much attention to arm and body position as possible.
I agree that the goal isn’t time, but for sure, if your time is wayyy slow compared to the speed gap of someone who is proficient at the drill, it’s a really helpful red flag that you’re doing the drill wrong or suboptimally at least.
, if your time is wayyy slow compared to the speed gap of someone who is proficient at the drill, it’s a really helpful red flag
Possibly. But it might be a bigger indication that there are other parts of your technique/ body position that need work. If your stroke count is consistent, then pay attention to the 3 H’s, (head, hips, and heels). Those should be in line.
I do fist drill as part of my warmup drills every single session. I would say I usually do them in ~37s for 50y. This is a pretty easy effort as the point of the drill is to make sure to engage your core and kick while maintaining proper arm alignment. The same effort just swimming I would probably be 33-34s for 50y, but I don’t think it’s a really good comparison. I can do 50’s holding 32’s or faster all day, but my ‘threshold’ pace (aka something more like 3k straight for time) is more like 1:08/100y. In other words, it’s too short of an interval to compare with-- like holding 10k run pace for 200m.
Also, when I do fist drill, I don’t engage fists until after the breakout stroke (never ever ever practice bad breakouts) and disengage for the last stroke into the wall (to be consistent in setting up the turn).
I never focus on time goals when doing drills. The point of a drill is to focus on form issues and correcting them.
THIS ^^^^^^^^ x 1000 x 1000
Who cares what the time difference is? I don’t know one swim or triathlon coach who has ever commented on the time difference between doing a drill and normal swimming.
fist drill is about feeling the water pressure on the hands when you open them back up. Not the time gap which may or may not indicate anything
Just trying to gauge if I’m in the right ballpark or not with regards to the ‘fisty-swim’ drill, in which you make tight fists and swim freestyle to try and teach yourself to better use your forearm rather than just your palm as a surface for propulsion.
For me when I do this I go slower by 7-10sec/100, mainly because I feel like I’m ‘undergeared’ for speed, analogous to trying to go fast on flat road on a bike while in a small gear. If I really propeller it like a sprint effort I can get 2-3 sec from my normal speed but it def takes more aerobic effort, as I’d expect.
I’d imagine you folks who can swim 1:15-1:20 for distance would still be sub 1:25 with the fisty swim? Or do you lose more than that?
In my experience, that time difference is pretty appropriate. I’ve seen people in the ~5 second range per 100, or about 2 seconds over a 50 when done fast.
This assumes that you are actually closing your fists. A lot of people have a pretty loose interpretation of what ‘closed’ means!
You will feel ‘under-geared’. That’s a great description. You simply won’t get as much out of each stroke, no matter how well you use the forearm.
I agree with you rationale for timing these efforts that you made later. If there is a abnormally large gap, it means you are particularly bad at the skills the exercise is exposing. That means there is room for improvement. What gets measured, gets managed. At the same time, there is also value in doing it just for feel. It depends on WHY you’re doing it.
Ok, ex college swimmer here. Been working hard to get in solid swim shape after 2020 knocked us all out of the pool.
A few months ago, doing the fist drill was tough. I’m so glad both of you noted the wonky body position - without the counterbalance of your pull, if your core isn’t engaged properly, you’re not going to be engaging your pull sufficiently. That was what I noticed too - my pull was slipping (as expected) but my body position felt sloppy when I was out of shape.
Now, feeling much more in shape, the fist drill isn’t as awful. I wouldn’t ever prescribe 100s of fist, as I think it’s really important to go from pushing just the fist to feeling the whole paddle, but we’ve done quite a bit of 50s at masters recently. 50s fist on the 50 aren’t so bad, I won’t push too hard and cruise in around 42-44, where 50s open hand at the same exertion level are probably 41-42 (RPE 3ish). Haven’t tried fist drill at a higher RPE. Maybe I’ll try that on Wednesday.
A lot of people subconsciously use their arms to create balance and stability when they swim. A lot of subtle lateral arm actions and sculls are really attempts to create stability, not create propulsion. When you close the fist, it takes away the option and opportunity to use the hands for this purpose. As a result, your body position is going to feel off.
This is another benefit of these types of exercises. They can make you aware of errors in body position that you aren’t even aware of. You can then work to fix them. For this reason, it can also improve your pull. If your body position is better, and you aren’t using the arms to compensate, the arms are free to do what you really want them to do, which is create speed.
fist drill is about feeling the water pressure on the hands when you open them back up.
adding… and forearm. Searching for a leveraged pull from the forearm might induce the athlete to get a higher elbow in the pull phase. This can require direct intervention assistance to get this right.
I went into the Endless pool and checked it out. When I coach the team, we usually don’t use Fist Drill that often. I’ll use it more in the endless pool working with athletes one on one. On the team, to stimulate something similar but get fitness at the same time we’ll use the Sensory Mitts from Aquavolo. I typically wouldn’t be too concerned about speed with a Fist Drill since with a “pure” drill you want to be more focused on executing the best possible movement so you’ll probably slow it down initially. But I thought it was an interesting question so I got in the Endless pool and checked it out.
If you have any questions, please let me know. I’m always happy to help.
I’m always amazed at how easy your ex-D1 swimmers make 1:20 pace look. 1:20/100yds for me is close to an all-out 100 yd sprint - and I’m not at all thrashing or being really inefficient (I’ve videod myself numerous times to check!) Your 1:20 swim effort looks like my 1:50 effort and turnover.
Welcome. The pool goes as fast :51/100 yards. I’ve been trying to train in it for a 50 free in a meet. I’ll start posting some of the videos on that shortly as I get more consistent with the training. The :51/100 in the endless pool is definitely an interesting experience.