Swimming - is there light at the end of the tunnel or am I a lost case?

Triathlon Forum
1

My weakest discipline is the swim and it will probably always be that but hopefully it will go from being bad to acceptable. Below is my “improvement” curve, wanted to hear if this is a reasonable one or if I am progressing very slowly. The purpose is to know if I am on the right track and just need to be patient or if I need to do something radically different to get on the right curve.

From:
I started swimming freestyle 25 months ago. I do not remember my 100m time as I did not know the relevance of this but I would guess it would be 100m SC coming in at 2:05 mins ard leaving at 2:25 for 10 repeats

To:
Now I can do 100m repeats coming in around 1:40-1:43, leaving at 1:55 or 2 min. It is not comfortable but doable.

So in other words: Is a ~20 second improvement per 100m over the course of ~2 years what can be expected or is it slower? It feels slow but maybe that is how swimming is.

I swim some 10-12k per week

Thanks

2

My weakest discipline is the swim and it will probably always be that but hopefully it will go from being bad to acceptable. Below is my “improvement” curve, wanted to hear if this is a reasonable one or if I am progressing very slowly. The purpose is to know if I am on the right track and just need to be patient or if I need to do something radically different to get on the right curve.

From:
I started swimming freestyle 25 months ago. I do not remember my 100m time as I did not know the relevance of this but I would guess it would be 100m SC coming in at 2:05 mins ard leaving at 2:25 for 10 repeats

To:
Now I can do 100m repeats coming in around 1:40-1:43, leaving at 1:55 or 2 min. It is not comfortable but doable.

So in other words: Is a ~20 second improvement per 100m over the course of ~2 years what can be expected or is it slower? It feels slow but maybe that is how swimming is.

I swim some 10-12k per week

Thanks

In 2 years from flat out beginner to now, that’s not bad at all. What is your typical race pace? If it is much different than your 100m repeat time, then you either have a form breakdown when racing, or you aren’t doing the right type of training.

10-12k per week might be sufficient, might not. Give a typical workout week, I’m betting that there is some more speed to be had in a different workout structure. The biggest thing I’ve found in a lot of triathletes is they don’t make it hurt in the pool the way they do the bike. I see tons of “Had to walk down the stairs backwards!” kind of posts, very rarely do I see ones that say “Had to bend my head down, couldn’t raise my arms to shampoo!”

John

3

Last HIM (Jan 2013) was 42 mins approx, with wetsuit. Cause was long and water rough but much slower than my pool swim at that point fore sure

Last IM (March 2013) was 1h15 min, with wetsuit. Swam just below 2 mins per 100m.

Regarding OWS I for sure have some “low hanging fruits”:
– swim straigther
– push harder, I tend to take it too easy in the swim leg I think

Regarding my typical week:
5 sessions of which one is a 1,5k recovery session just to get in the water. The remaining for is roughly like this:
– one session with longer reps at race pace
– remaining sessions mixing 50-100m reps hard as well as some 200s

For sure I do not suffer enough in swim training. In bike and run I do, in swim I just do not feel I can/want to suffer as much.

A.

4

I’m no fish, but I did swim in high school (not that fast) and my “hard” intervals have me coming in at or just under 1:20 (scy). I am in the midst of my biggest swim week since I started triathlons in 2008 and after my lunch swim today, I’m at 5800 yards.

Seems like after a million yards, you would be down to 1:30’s.

5

Last HIM (Jan 2013) was 42 mins approx, with wetsuit. Cause was long and water rough but much slower than my pool swim at that point fore sure

Last IM (March 2013) was 1h15 min, with wetsuit. Swam just below 2 mins per 100m.

Regarding OWS I for sure have some “low hanging fruits”:
– swim straigther
– push harder, I tend to take it too easy in the swim leg I think

Regarding my typical week:
5 sessions of which one is a 1,5k recovery session just to get in the water. The remaining for is roughly like this:
– one session with longer reps at race pace
– remaining sessions mixing 50-100m reps hard as well as some 200s

For sure I do not suffer enough in swim training. In bike and run I do, in swim I just do not feel I can/want to suffer as much.

A.

And you’re not alone feeling this way! Why is it suffering in the pool just feels so much worse than suffering on a bike/run outdoors or even on a trainer/treadmill/spin class?

Irregardless, the post by Devlin is spot on. It would seem you are doing enough yardage on a weekly basis but not suffering enough. Ditch the long, continuous swims “just to get in the water” and really focus on what you want to get out of a workout. Just getting in the water isn’t going to do much of anything, except get you in the water. I would think of it as analogous to going for a walk “just to get out on the road” for run training. You’ll get more benefit from a pool session of shorter duration but devoted entirely to doing stroke drills (as long as you do them properly). Also, mix it up a bit, throw a set of longer intervals and a set of sprint work into each workout rather than isolating each of those for one workout. There are tons of excellent swimming blogs and workouts available online, just do a google search, that will provide focus and allow for measurable progress reports.

Good luck, you’ll get there.

6

I had to double check that your post wasn’t my life story. Swimming for 2 years, roughly 12,000 yards a week. I do a lot of short, hard intervals two days, then two days of longer sets (mostly 200 to 400).

My 100 yard time has been stuck on 1:40 for 8 months. I can swim 100 yards in 1:30, but it will only last for a little while when I will reset to 1:40. In an ows race I usually average 1:50. No improvement in a long time and I have all but given up on getting faster. The only solution may be a coach? It’s very frustrating to be in good shape and suffer so much in the pool.

7

I’m going to have to go with form/technique issues as for the main reason for lack of improvement.

Tons of yards in the pool won’t make up for lousy form and or poor technique. Take some lessons to get your form and technique straight. I bet you’ll see much more improvement than you will by upping your yardage more or increasing the “suffering”.

8

There’s a light at the end of the tunnel. Oncoming train.

9

can you flip turn? I think open turns the way most triathletes do them are a time suck

10

10 years…10,000 hours
Give it some time. What is mastered in only a couple of years?

11

swimming is hard.
up the amount of time and energy you spend working on it
and improvement will come
not fast, not miraculous, but it will get better if you keep overloading your body.

12

Andreas - Do you ever sprint all out 25s and 50s??? I see no tri-folks ever doing this in the pool (unless they swam in HS/college), and I think this is a big limiter on progress, because you never raise your highest gear. If you want to swim say 1:30/100m leaving on 1:45 for 20 x 100m, then you need to be able to do one single 100 in around 1:20, which implies a single all out 50m in around 36-ish. Consider including 6 x 25m on 1:15 and 4 x 50m on 2:30 sets into your workouts about 2 or 3 days/wk. In fact, many swim coaches swear by the motto of some fast swimming every day, so you could even finish off every single swim with say 2 x 25 hard or a 1 x 50 hard, and do 6 x 25 or 4 x 50 on the days when you feel the best.

13

Last HIM (Jan 2013) was 42 mins approx, with wetsuit. Cause was long and water rough but much slower than my pool swim at that point fore sure

Last IM (March 2013) was 1h15 min, with wetsuit. Swam just below 2 mins per 100m.

Regarding OWS I for sure have some “low hanging fruits”:
– swim straigther
– push harder, I tend to take it too easy in the swim leg I think

Regarding my typical week:
5 sessions of which one is a 1,5k recovery session just to get in the water. The remaining for is roughly like this:
– one session with longer reps at race pace
– remaining sessions mixing 50-100m reps hard as well as some 200s

**For sure I do not suffer enough in swim training. In bike and run I do, in swim I just do not feel I can/want to suffer as much. **A.

A. - Do you enjoy swimming??? Do you love the feel of the water flowing over your body??? I think most real swimmers do, and they like the feeling of their body moving fast through the water, since the sensations of swimming fast are diff from swimming slowly. The only way guys like Phelps and Lochte endure 4 to 5 hrs/day in the water, 6 to 7 days/wk, and spend some of that time really suffering, is because they truly love swimming.

I do not know if the love of swimming can be developed or not, but my gut feeling is that, generally speaking, either you either have it or you don’t. All of the Masters swimmers I know who came into the sport in adult life and have stuck with it for decades, did so because they just enjoy the feeling of being in the water. Generally, these people can ride the bike but hate to run. Most of them only run if someone is chasing them, and hence do not do tri.

That said, I have known 2 guys who didn’t really like swimming all that much, but still were able to get to where they could swim pretty fast, just through sheer desire. They never swam as fast as they ran, on a relative basis, but they got down to around 20:xx for a pool 1500 SCM. They both ran 15:xx for the 5K so their running was still faster than their swim on a relative to the world records basis.

Anyway, stick with it and do those sprints!!!

14

I wouldn’t worry about it. The swim is only about 10% of the race. I know a guy who side strokes ever IM he does. He is a beast on the bike and run and his times are very good for his AG. You can make up a ton of time in the other two legs.

15

Swimming improvement is tough, because you have to have technique to improve speed, and you have to have a certain amount of minimum fitness to work on technique. The question becomes: do you swim blindly (with respect to technique), focus only on technique, or utilize a balance of the two?

After 2 years of swimming I would say you should be at the point where you’re ready for a solid technique focus, as well as a bit of higher-intensity variation in your workouts. If you could manage, get someone with a lot of swimming experience (and preferably some coaching experience) to help you out with your stroke. If you can afford a proper coach then that’s even better. An educated set of eyes is better than none at all, but one that knows how to teach people to improve rather than one who only has the ability to implement advice in their own stroke is superior. If you’d rather crowd-source your advice, grab a GoPro camera and set it up at the bottom of a shallow pool

Swimming is a vicious sport–in biking most all hard work will be rewarded. The same generally holds true with running too–your hard work will lead your body to self-select an efficient set of stride mechanics. Swimming, on the other hand, will allow you to beat your head against the wall indefinitely. There is no substitute for proper technique, and proper technique will almost always be faster than pure strength. This is the reason why folks who swam in high school or college can, after a 5-10 year hiatus from the sport, return to swimming and beat the average triathlete-swimmer who has been training consistently.

16

As with all things in sport, physique and age have an effect on overall swim ability. It also seems to me that most people getting into the sport (Triathlon) are in their 30’s and they improve until 50, then if they are lucky they maintain, after 60 it all goes sideways. (Usually).

In the Tri Masters group I swim with, I notice that only a few have improved (their time) over a winter of swimming and almost none have altered their stroke one iota. Most have really poor stroke mechanics, which they make no effort to alter. Few are shattered at the end of a set. They just want to get it over with. Are you in that group.

If you are doing 10-12k a week you are leaving something in the pool and I would make a bet it’s technique. More than any other sport swimming is about technique. Whether it’'s your pull, body position or kick. One or more of those things is causing you to slow down. Your stand alone time is always an indicator. If you can do a really fast 100 (for your relative age, build, experience and technique) but can’t maintain, it’s conditioning (look up masters swim competition swim times). If you can do only a slow 100 but maintain close to it in the reps, then it’s technique. The trick is how much difference you have. If it is only 10 sec a hundred difference ( technique), if it’s 20 seconds (conditioning). Age has a remarkable affect on all this, but not until you hit 60’ish.

If you do a broken 750 (400,200,100,50 the sprint distance and then a reverse order set) do you fade quickly or stay consistent. It can be argued that a swimmer that is not consistent has poor conditioning. but they could also have poor technique and are fading because poor stroke mechanics usually means you are bulling your way through. By the same token if you are consistent it can be argued sometimes you are handicapping yourself by maintaining a slow speed in order to finish, notwithstanding technique. To know which you have to get a little shattered.

Swimming is a brutally honest business. You can’t fake technique or conditioning. But don’t confuse one with the other. With 10-12k you should be well conditioned (assuming you get shattered once in a while), ergo it’s technique.
Get a stroke assessment.

17

I wouldn’t worry about it. The swim is only about 10% of the race. I know a guy who side strokes ever IM he does. He is a beast on the bike and run and his times are very good for his AG. You can make up a ton of time in the other two legs.

Yeah, and just imagine where he might be if he didn’t side stroke.

John

18

Last HIM (Jan 2013) was 42 mins approx, with wetsuit. Cause was long and water rough but much slower than my pool swim at that point fore sure

Last IM (March 2013) was 1h15 min, with wetsuit. Swam just below 2 mins per 100m.

Regarding OWS I for sure have some “low hanging fruits”:
– swim straigther
– push harder, I tend to take it too easy in the swim leg I think

Regarding my typical week:
5 sessions of which one is a 1,5k recovery session just to get in the water. The remaining for is roughly like this:
– one session with longer reps at race pace
– remaining sessions mixing 50-100m reps hard as well as some 200s

For sure I do not suffer enough in swim training. In bike and run I do, in swim I just do not feel I can/want to suffer as much.

A.

I submit that your “1.5k recovery session” and the “session with longer reps at race pace” have very little benefit in making you a faster swimmer. Swimming slowly in training only ensures you’ll swim slowly in a race. Yes you do want to mix in some longer swims and not everything needs to be sets of 100’s on short rest, but frankly those kinds of sets are where you’ll get the most improvement. There’s a reason why there’s a pace clock on the wall at every pool :wink:

In your OP you say you can do 100’s on 1:55 holding ~1:40. The goal then should be to periodically reduce that base interval like so:
Weeks 1-3: 10x100 @1:55. Each 100 is under 1:40 with the second 5 being faster than the first 5
Weeks 4-6: 10x100 @1:50. Each 100 is under 1:35…Weeks 7-9: 10x100 @1:45…

Of course it won’t always be 10x100, sometimes its 6x200 @3:50 holding 3:20’s, or 4x300 @5:45 holding 5:00. The point is though that on a regular basis (every 3-4 weeks or so) you try to extend yourself by putting your base interval faster.

The other key thing is maintaining consistent repeat times - or better yet, descending them. The first time you do 10x100 @1:50 you may start off going 1:35, by number 10 you might be 1:49. You want to strive towards number 1 being 1:35 and number 10 being 1:25. Then the next week drop the base interval to 1:45.

For sure this will be hard; your stroke will fall apart and sometimes you’ll just be touching the wall and pushing right off again. But becoming a better swimmer requires more than just logging yardage - it requires constant focus and effort. You not only have to set a goal for each workout but for each SET in each workout, and often each REPEAT in each set.

And just a note on technique. While it is very important, there is little benefit in having a pretty stroke if it means you’re swimming slowly. If you concentrate on interval based training and regularly dropping your base interval times you’ll be amazed at how you find the technique you need to hit those times.

19

Swimming harder will only get you so far. Swimming is such a technical sport - join a masters program or hire a coach or find someone to video you while you swim and work really hard at fixing your stroke. To make this relative - if you were running 50-60k a week of running - I am pretty sure you wouldnt be happy running 60min 10k races. I think that if people put the time into learning how to swim properly - they will easily be able to swim 1k in 15-17min. ONce you have your stroke length down and you develop the core strength to hold your position in the water, you can then work on doing hard swim workouts - technique before hard work in the pool will pay dividends. not the same for running and biking - but the pool - technique first - otherwise you are just wasting effort

20

Sorry but you’re wrong. It is not a “this or that” proposition. Anyone who thinks spending who-knows-how-long “perfecting” swim technique before you can start training hard has either never swam competitively or is trying to sell something- or both.