Has anyone ever REALLY gone from being a MOP swimmer to a FOP swimmer?
I know so many frustrated swimmers that work hard and have never managed to really improve significantly. Drills, aerobic work, strength training, video analysis = minor improvement.
Even Carfrae hasn’t managed to do it. No doubt, she has access to the best coaches and advice in the world… including ST!
I’m thinking it can’t be done… someone please prove me wrong.
Has anyone ever REALLY gone from being a MOP swimmer to a FOP swimmer?
I know so many frustrated swimmers that work hard and have never managed to really improve significantly. Drills, aerobic work, strength training, video analysis = minor improvement.
Even Carfrae hasn’t managed to do it. No doubt, she has access to the best coaches and advice in the world… including ST! I’m thinking it can’t be done… someone please prove me wrong.
The ST poster klehner learned to swim at age 26 and within 4 months swam 26.5 for 50 scy, and after about 2 yrs swam 51.X for 100 scy and 5:17 for 500 scy. He’s now age 55-ish and still at FOP.
The ST poster lightheir started swimming in his late 30s and swam 2:00-ish per 100 scy up for 2 or 3 yrs, but in the past 9 months he dropped from 2:00 down to 1:20 per 100 scy by using the Vasa trainer to build his swim-specific strength and endurance.
Beyond those 2 ST-ers, I have known about 8 or 10 masters swimmers who started in their 20s or 30s and who got down to swimming under 1:10 for 100 scy, and under 6:30 for 500 scy. About 5 of the 10 got under 6:00 for the 500.
So, it can be done but it requires a lot of hard work plus some degree of feel for the water, which I think can developed, although people vary greatly in their ability to catch on to this concept. I think a dedicated swim block of about 8 to 13 weeks where you swim 6 days/wk at as much yardage as you can handle, and with someone watching your form at least 1 or 2 sessions per week, is what is really required to get over thee hump and begin steady improvement. Ideally, you would just bike and run maybe 1 or 2 days per week while concentrating on your swim. The Nov to Jan time frame is ideal for this but, if you are motivated, you could start tomorrow (3 Feb) and go thru 31 Mar, which would give you 8 solid weeks:)
Has anyone ever REALLY gone from being a MOP swimmer to a FOP swimmer?
I know so many frustrated swimmers that work hard and have never managed to really improve significantly. Drills, aerobic work, strength training, video analysis = minor improvement.
Even Carfrae hasn’t managed to do it. No doubt, she has access to the best coaches and advice in the world… including ST!
I’m thinking it can’t be done… someone please prove me wrong.
I can’t speak to the pro level. So, if that’s your question, ignore my blather below. If you’re asking about age group; then yes.
Me…
Grew up in MN (basically “on the lake”), never swam competitively, but comfortable in the water. Started tri’s in 84. My dad thought I was gonna die in the swim. Fast forward a few years and moved to CA, joined masters and made decent progress. Moved up to maybe MOP or MOP+. Not close to FOP. Got tired of tris and did MTB, running, and Motocross from '91 - '04. Decided tris would be “good for me” and made a commitment to get out of the water near the front. Swam alone, but, was really excited to give it all. Swam at the Bozeman Swim Center (MT, ~4,800ft) 50LCM pool (too warm BTW). Core workout was 14x100 on 2:10 The idea was to have quite a bit of rest so I could try to swim “fast” (relative term). Swam as much as possible, 5 or more days/wk. 1st year got down to holding ~1:25 per 100 on a good day. Fast? Not really, but for triathlon in AG 40-44 (at that time); pretty much. As I’ve written here on ST before (sorry for the broken record). Triathletes come to swimming with plenty of Cardio/pulmonary fitness; so my philosophy is: I don’t swim for fitness, I swim for fastness. Fitness is a inevitable and, beneficial byproduct of swimming. The only way to learn to swim fast - at some point you have to swim fast. That’s why I have longer rest intervals, they give me a chance to “feel” what fast is.
Full disclosure (2 parts). 1) everybody is different, and, some will have an ability to learn swimming faster than others (perhaps I’m lucky in that regard). 2) I really believe my attitude was the true difference, I convinced myself that I like swimming - sure enough, it wasn’t long after that I discovered that I did really like swimming. Bonus was coming out of the water FOP. Now I take it for granted. The downside is that now I actually have to pick out my bike from racks full of bikes in T1. Good problem to have!
Please, do enjoy the journey.
i gone from a 40min /2km swimmer when in my 20s to been in the lead of any pro races in long distance, 48ish ironman swim, 22-23ish half ironman distance, sub 18min/1500m
It s not overly complicated… around 40km/week of swimming for many months over a few years (10) and you will get there… not everyone will be able to mentally do this and/or have time for it.
Well, if you’re using mirinda as an example, you might need to better define what you mean by fop and mop. There is a point after which progress gets ridiculously hard, no matter who’s coaching you.
I believe (not certain though) that jonnyo went from a mop pro to being able to hang with the front pack. Cody Beals has improved a lot over the last year, based on what SnappingT has been posting recently. I’m sure there are others.
I’ve gone from very back if the pack to top 25 percent in IM races and top 10 per cent in local races.
From a 2 + minute per 100 scm to 1:33…
Not super fast but I feel fresh coming out of the water and still lots of bikes in transition.
Took me 5 years…the formula…consistency, intensity and volume.
My biggest gains come when I crank Up the volume. I am presently doing a swim block with volumes over 15k meters per week trying to get to 20k by end of feb. I had plateaued a bit bit this last push has got my times dropping again…I am sure I will get to under 1:30 per hundred by March.
Well, if you’re using mirinda as an example, you might need to better define what you mean by fop and mop. There is a point after which progress gets ridiculously hard, no matter who’s coaching you.
I believe (not certain though) that jonnyo went from a mop pro to being able to hang with the front pack. Cody Beals has improved a lot over the last year, based on what SnappingT has been posting recently. I’m sure there are others.
Good responses so far… at least it sounds like it can be done…
I suppose I am talking a 1.00 - 1.10 IM swimmer to a 50min - 1.00 swimmer. I know that is a bit of a range but there is obviously a fair bit of variation in IM swims.
I think Mirinda is an relevant example because she is over the hour at Kona and her competitors are around the 55min mark.
I will check out Snapping T’s posts.
I am with Manofthewoods on the ‘you need to swim fast to be fast’ point.
If you’re talking about that range, sure, maybe she is a good example, but without knowing a) her training and b) her pacing strategy, I can’t say that she cant go any better.
But to get from 1:05 to :55, sure, lots have done that. Depends on what you were doing before though.
Yes. I have coached a handful of them. Jason mentioned Cody, but also Matt Hanson, Liz Baugher and Todd Teren. You can see some of the results here: www.magnoliamasters.com/swim-efficiency
We’ve also gotten a good number of age groupers into the front group.
It’s a lot of work, it’s very hard, but it can be done.
Best regards,
Tim Floyd
The older the person, the rarer the bird that goes from middle to front of the pack.
They are rare in the 20s, precious in the 30s, in the 40s I know one and FOP is being generous. 50s, I have never seen a person who took up competitive swimming after age 50 who is faster than 1:45 per 100 in yards. They probably exist, but I haven’t seen them.
Learn all you can about stroke dynamics. Check out these books, the best I have seen regarding the topic.
http://www.amazon.com/Swim-Speed-Secrets-Swimmers-Triathletes/dp/1934030880/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y
If you can’t swim on any given day model the stoke with stretch cords.
http://www.nzmfg.com/products/sku/S101.aspx
I have trying to improve my swimming for years through masters and lessons. It took those two basic steps and two months to make a huge difference.
I started swimming at 18 from scratch, swam ~26 min for Olympic Distance at 19, but now at 22 I can swim sets on 1:15/100 scy base when in shape. The biggest change for me was going from 10k to close to 20k yards/week and swimming hard in at least 4/6 sessions. BUT I’m still not really FOP in some races so I guess it depends on your definition of the term.
Has anyone ever REALLY gone from being a MOP swimmer to a FOP swimmer]
You bet. I was lucky if I could swim an open water mile in a triathlon in 27 min when I started. Now, when in shape, I can swim one in about 18.5 min.
I know so many frustrated swimmers that work hard and have never managed to really improve significantly. Drills, aerobic work, strength training, video analysis = minor improvement.
It’s not just “hard work.” No amount of training or bike technique can get you riding like a pro if your bike is attached to a huge parachute. The secret to getting faster in the water is to constantly use your head. You MUST fix and improve your technique, not just by doing random drills, but by fixing YOUR SPECIFIC swim errors. And you must get smart outside observers to see the errors and then instruct you on exactly HOW to fix them. But very few swim coaches know how to do this. Very very few.
Even Carfrae hasn’t managed to do it. No doubt, she has access to the best coaches and advice in the world… including ST!
No surprise there. The state of adult onset swim instruction in the USA (maybe in other parts of the world too) is very poor. Many people do not appreciate what fixing technique problems can do for them. And many athletes are not good at listening to feedback and then internalizing it. Lots of athletes just go out and train, they don’t actually want to do the homework necessary to get faster. They don’t seem to have the psychology to want to learn and adapt. But you can get very large and nearly instant improvements from fixing technique errors. I know this because I have seen it many times.
.
Has anyone ever REALLY gone from being a MOP swimmer to a FOP swimmer?
I know so many frustrated swimmers that work hard and have never managed to really improve significantly. Drills, aerobic work, strength training, video analysis = minor improvement.
Even Carfrae hasn’t managed to do it. No doubt, she has access to the best coaches and advice in the world… including ST!
I’m thinking it can’t be done… someone please prove me wrong.
OK, sounds like it can be done IF you:
Too easy! 
Another important thing to consider:
If, after some training, you’re only a 50th percentile runner and biker, you’re not gonna turn into a 95th percentile swimmer. But if you’re already a 90th percentile runner and biker and only a 50th percentile swimmer, then it is very likely that, after considerable work and after fixing all of your major swim flaws that you can indeed turn into a 90th percentile swimmer.
The other sports give you an approx gauge of how big an aerobic powerplant you have. So, ***IF ***you work hard equally across the 3 sports (many athletes don’t) and remove all impediments (and there can be lots of those in swimming), you will likely have similar success in each of the 3 disciplines.
With emphasis on the word, ‘likely’.
.
Some good responses in this thread though context is often lost and good info is rendered “bad.”
They are rare in the 20s, precious in the 30s, in the 40s I know one and FOP is being generous. 50s, I have never seen a person who took up competitive swimming after age 50 who is faster than 1:45 per 100 in yards. They probably exist, but I haven’t seen them.
I think the above is unnecessarily discouraging. If you have FOP in ONE of the three disciplines, you can probably develop it in the others if you put in the time. Remember that FOP is also age-grouped.
Swimming is the one event that seems to take the MOST time though to get right, and the frustration can be hard to deal with. For any given change in my swim training, I expect that it will take 6 weeks to see a benefit - and that’s swimming 5-6 days per week. There are LOTS of videos, advice and drills available here and on youtube to help keep things going in the right direction - coaching is nice but you can make progress without it. I have taken advantage of that advice.
You asked for proof: I started competing solo in triathlons in 2013, and in my first event I was LAST out of the water - but I was a strong cyclist. From then till now I have steadily increased my volume (and pestering of those ST experts who will still answer questions) - and in my last race of 2014 I was 7th out of the water in a wave that included ALL the male starters. From that time till now, I have gone from 1:40 per 100 to a single, flat out time of 1:20 per 100Y. It will not win me any medals at the Olympics, but if I can make it stick between now and May, it should certainly qualify as amateur, age-group FOP.
coaching is nice but you can make progress without it. I have taken advantage of that advice.
Congrats on your good progress. But I would differ with you, it is not that you need a “coach” per se, but to improve to your full potential you do need a set of eyes that is not on your head (i.e., on somone else’s head) to see your mistakes from the outside. Then you need someone to tell you exactly how to fix every one of those mistakes. Then you need that extra set of eyes to evaluate if you have truly fixed all of those mistakes, or if you’re just backsliding and doing them again. But ymmv …
.
Some good responses in this thread though context is often lost and good info is rendered “bad.”
A little “harsh,” but, true…
I especially like: 6, 7, 4, 8 - ah, hell they are all “good”
But I would differ with you, it is not that you need a “coach” per se, but to improve to your full potential you do need a set of eyes that is not on your head
I 100% agree, and wasn’t clear in my post - I’m at the point now where I really need a swim coach, and I’m trying (unsuccessfully so far) to fit a night a week of Master’s swimming into the plan. But I did get TO this point without one, which was my point.
Thank you for the compliment on my progress, I appreciate it.