This analogy has limits, but if you want to do 1 pull up, you will likely rely more on your biceps than lats. But if you want to do 20 pull-ups you pretty much have to pull from the lats (135lb gymnasts with 20" pythons excluded).
Swimming is similar in that it is easier to swim pulling with your arms than lats. But fast swimming comes from the lats, not arms.
When you pull don’t just reach. REALLY reach. Stretch your lats when you reach. Is a lat contraction part of your pull? If not, you didn’t REALLY reach.
were you not paying attention in the “unsolicited advice” thread?
;>)
Isn’t a big part of engaging the lats proper rotation of the body and bending at the elbow? Isn’t it more than stretching out? Or do I have that wrong?
I thought you’d have a pic of the hulk trying to swim and barely squeezing his shoulders between the lane ropes.
When your arm is out front YES you should be rotating. But the arm bend is after the initial reach.
This guy has freakishly oversized lats. Not sure if he is any good: http://blogs.reuters.com/...icture-of-the-day-9/
That guy won’t amount to anything he is a pussy! Besides until he learns hotman’s ‘turn thrust glide’ technique he won’t truly achieve excellence.
what the heck is this post about? Does this guy realize that the folks “in the know” about swimming are collegiate all americans and very well accomplished swimmers. I think the cart is before the horse here. You use good technique, and whatever muscels that takes are what get developed. Triathlon is a minimalist sport. Unlike football where you migth want a certain amount of “bulk”. In triathlons you desire as little bulk as nessesary. Actually anytime I see a guy with larger shoulders, biceps or calves, I know he’s probably not a FOP racer.
I think you misunderstood.
what the heck is this post about? Does this guy realize that the folks “in the know” about swimming are collegiate all americans and very well accomplished swimmers. I think the cart is before the horse here. You use good technique, and whatever muscels that takes are what get developed. Triathlon is a minimalist sport. Unlike football where you migth want a certain amount of “bulk”. In triathlons you desire as little bulk as nessesary. Actually anytime I see a guy with larger shoulders, biceps or calves, I know he’s probably not a FOP racer.
I cannot tell if you completely agree or completely disagree with me!
I think you misunderstood.
Sory, I re-read it.
I suppose it’s nice advice for weaker swimmers. Reaching and rolling your shoulders is one of the basic fundamentals of proper technique. I will admit, it’s probably the most common “mistake” I see in the pool. I guess i don’t lift weights enouhg because I never would have bothered correlating my stroke technique to which muscles groups I’m using the same way I could care less which specific leg mucles I’m using in each part of my running stride or pedaling motion. I tell my leg what to do, and hopefuloly it does it the way I want.
Sory, I re-read it.
I suppose it’s nice advice for weaker swimmers. Reaching and rolling your shoulders is one of the basic fundamentals of proper technique. I will admit, it’s probably the most common “mistake” I see in the pool.
If you had asked me my thoughts about this a month ago I probably would have said about the same. Then I met a strength trainer who works with TWO world record holders (one masters and the other the, well, real kind) and he basically laughed in my face at the notion that my stroke was effectively engaging my lats.
I don’t think it comes natural to anyone, and I think you are probably unaware how little reaching you are actually doing. I am using the plural “you,” in this case. For all I know, you motoguy, are a 4:32 500 freestyler.
This guy has freakishly oversized lats. Not sure if he is any good: http://blogs.reuters.com/...icture-of-the-day-9/
That guy won’t amount to anything he is a pussy! Besides until he learns hotman’s ‘turn thrust glide’ technique he won’t truly achieve excellence.
At the same time, a lot of the top triathlon swimmers don’t have freakishly big lats. Gomez and the Brownlees have very wimpy looking lats. I often wonder if the huge lats on the pure top swimmers are hugely influenced by their short-distance race format.
This guy has freakishly oversized lats. Not sure if he is any good: http://blogs.reuters.com/...icture-of-the-day-9/
At the same time, a lot of the top triathlon swimmers don’t have freakishly big lats. Gomez and the Brownlees have very wimpy looking lats. I often wonder if the huge lats on the pure top swimmers are hugely influenced by their short-distance race format.
I agree, the picture of Phelps was an unnecessary distraction.
Ali is faster in a 1500M than me because he is more effective at reaching and pulling with his lats. Not because his lats are stronger. By big muscles, I mean that relative to yourself, not other people.
This guy has freakishly oversized lats. Not sure if he is any good: http://blogs.reuters.com/...icture-of-the-day-9/
At the same time, a lot of the top triathlon swimmers don’t have freakishly big lats. Gomez and the Brownlees have very wimpy looking lats. I often wonder if the huge lats on the pure top swimmers are hugely influenced by their short-distance race format.
I agree, the picture of Phelps was an unnecessary distraction.
Ali is faster in a 1500M than me because he is more effective at reaching and pulling with his lats. Not because his lats are stronger. By big muscles, I mean that relative to yourself, not other people.
Several comments:
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The picture of Phelps is just that, a picture, an instantaneous snapshot in time. Many swimmers’ lats might look that big when swimming fly at a hard pace, i.e. his muscles are pumped up plus the picture is right at that point where his lats are at their maximum flaring out.
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The top ITU guys who both swim fast and are skinny have very high VO2 max levels, and very high turnover rates. They’re strong but prob are not as strong pound for pound as you (AJ) were as a sprinter in college. I’ll bet you could take them in a 50:)
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How does that “strength training expert” know whether any swimmer is engaging his lats or not??? Does he swim at all??? Sorry but I take ALL those guys opinions with about 0.1 of a grain of salt. If a guy’s lats and entire upper body are pumped up when coming out of the water, I’d say he has engaged his lats:)
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Also, a lot of strength training people judge others based mainly on size and definition of their muscles. Since you’ve gotten really skinny for triathlon (168 in college down to 152 now, at 6’ even, IIRC), this strength trainer may just be thinking you are not engaging your lats because you are, from his view point, too skinny. I have noticed this phenomenon myself as whenever I let myself go back to my natural swimming weight of about 180 at 6’2", all the weight guys say “wow, you look great”, then when I lose weight down to about 162, they all ask if I’m sick because, not only does my % fat go down, but my chest, arms, and lats get smaller also. I’m guessing the same sort of weight loss pattern for you??? It has been about 1/2 fat, 1/2 muscle according to my % fat measurements such that I look leaner but also considerably less muscular.
When you pull don’t just reach. REALLY reach. Stretch your lats when you reach. Is a lat contraction part of your pull? If not, you didn’t REALLY reach.
Hello, my name is Space Kitty and I’m an overreacher.
For months I’d been really trying to reach forward on my stroke, as a coach noticed I was dropping my arm early, before the pull phase. Well, I fixed that by really, really reaching. Trying to drive my arm forward with every stroke.
But I was reaching wrongly. I was reaching with my shoulder and not rotating properly. What this meant was that not only was I fatiguing my shoulders during recovery by driving my arm forward, by I was also making it far more difficult to engage my lats on the pull phase.
I’ve learnt now, with proper rotation from the hips, that I can get my arms in roughly the right position to initiate a nice high elbow catch. By not actively reaching, and rather letting my arm “fall” in the right position, I get fatigued through my shoulders more slowly than when I was really trying to reach forward.
So, don’t make my mistakes. By all means reach, but do it (primarily) through hip driven rotation rather than from the shoulder.
When you pull don’t just reach. REALLY reach. Stretch your lats when you reach. Is a lat contraction part of your pull? If not, you didn’t REALLY reach.
Hello, my name is Space Kitty and I’m an overreacher.
For months I’d been really trying to reach forward on my stroke, as a coach noticed I was dropping my arm early, before the pull phase. Well, I fixed that by really, really reaching. Trying to drive my arm forward with every stroke.
But I was reaching wrongly. I was reaching with my shoulder and not rotating properly. What this meant was that not only was I fatiguing my shoulders during recovery by driving my arm forward, by I was also making it far more difficult to engage my lats on the pull phase.
I’ve learnt now, with proper rotation from the hips, that I can get my arms in roughly the right position to initiate a nice high elbow catch. By not actively reaching, and rather letting my arm “fall” in the right position, I get fatigued through my shoulders more slowly than when I was really trying to reach forward.
So, don’t make my mistakes. By all means reach, but do it (primarily) through hip driven rotation rather than from the shoulder.
Ummm, maybe you’re not aware, but AJ was a D3 All-American swimmer in college, with a 21.5 for the 50 free, so his reach is probably not too bad:)
My reply was more of a general “learn from my mistakes kiddies” and not intended as advice for AJ… or, for that matter, anyone who has the capability to actually swim proper freestyle (I don’t).
Learning to reach, but not overreach was an important step on my road from guppy to… I don’t know, what’s the next step up from a guppy? I’d say sardine, but those things seem pretty fast.
My reply was more of a general “learn from my mistakes kiddies” and not intended as advice for AJ… or, for that matter, anyone who has the capability to actually swim proper freestyle (I don’t).
Learning to reach, but not overreach was an important step on my road from guppy to… I don’t know, what’s the next step up from a guppy? I’d say sardine, but those things seem pretty fast.
In the old YMCA learn-to-swim program, which I think is still around, the sequence is guppy, minnow, fish, flying fish, and shark. I remember getting all those patches and my mom sewing them on my swim suit:)