Swim workout - more or less rest?

Triathlon Forum
1

Today I did 5x400 scy on 5:50 in the pool. Last week I did the same workout on 6. I’m wondering if it’s better to have more rest, but go slightly faster, or take less rest and sacrafice a little speed. The way it worked out, I was actually faster this week with less rest (5:25, :24, :19, :15, :12) vs. last week (5:25, :23, :21, :18, :15), but I don’t think that will always be the case - I was feeling good today for whatever reason.

My big race for the year is IMWI and I’m hoping to go sub 60 (I’m a 30 minute half swimmer, 62 and feeling fresh in my only IM). I’m guessing both workouts might serve a purpose, but is either of them going to help me more than the other. Or should I include both types of workouts, alternating weeks? Thanks for any thoughts.

Dan

2

It depends upon what you primary goal of the workout is. Sometimes it may be better to swim then on a faster interval and sometimes better on a slower interval. The bottom line, to crack 60 min if you are that close, is being consistent in the water between now and the race, one workout won’t make or break that swim.

3

Speaking for only shorter intervals (100-300 or so) and only for myself, I find that decreasing the rest interval seems to have gotten me more than going faster. In fact, I’m getting faster on less rest. I used to use 1:30 as my scy base interval, and now I’m doing much more using 1:20 (say 100/200/300/300/200/100 on 1:20/2:40/4:00/4:00/2:40/1:20, all under 1:15/100) and equaling or bettering my times.

Go faster, take less rest. Simple, isn’t it?

4

If your overall trend is toward less rest with faster repeats, that is a good thing (as is variety). The second workout will help you more as it was faster with less rest. You appear to be very dedicated as indicated by the negative splits on both sets.

5

You appear to be very dedicated as indicated by the negative splits on both sets.

Or he’s going out too slowly on the first ones :slight_smile:

Seriously, I see a lot of people doing sets in which the first parts are no more than a glorified warmup. Unless they are actually warming up, they’re putting in a lot less intensive time than they might.

6

DD is right, it does depend on what you want to get out of ithe workout but for longer intervals, like 400s, the shorter rest makes a lot of sense. Looking at your times, I certainly wouldnt go on any slower of an interval than 5:50. If anything, you could think about pushing it down to 5:45 which would make a very nice LT set. Of course, its all academic unless you actually get to the pool and do it week after week while also maintaining your weekly swim volume.

7

You appear to be very dedicated as indicated by the negative splits on both sets.

Or he’s going out too slowly on the first ones :slight_smile:

Seriously, I see a lot of people doing sets in which the first parts are no more than a glorified warmup. Unless they are actually warming up, they’re putting in a lot less intensive time than they might.

5:25 for a 400 is no warm up for me. I wish it were.

To those who mentioned that the workouts will really only benefit me if I’m consistent and stick with it, I’m pretty good about that (I think anyway). Right now i’m swimming 4 x week - 12,500 yds. Come June-ish I’ll bump that to 16,000 yds on four swims. In the past swimming has burned me out more than running and biking, so I don’t want to be dreading swims come July.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It sounds like I’m on the right track. I’ll look to lower the interval to 5:45 next week and see how it goes.

Dan

8

Man I agree, if this is 400 yards, 5:25 in my book is moving.

Dave

9

Man I agree, if this is 400 yards, 5:25 in my book is moving.

Dave
You need a new book.

10

Too late to change my parents. I do not see many on my masters swim team that
can hold a 1:21 pace for 400 yards, and then repeat. I know I could not.
Some of us are just normal wusses

Dave

11

Swimming on a 1:20 base interval* has NOTHING to do with your parents. I recall the first time I did 100s on 1:20. I was 9. Most of the kids in the group were 10-12, but there was even a 6 or 7 year old in there. There are tons of tiny little 4 four-foot-six-inch children at school right now who will swim on a 1:20 base interval this afternoon. It has nothing to do with genetics. Frequency, intensity, duration. Measure and quantify each amount each week. Steadily increase overall training stress. The thing the 4’6’’ inch kids have going for them is they swim more than you or anyone in your Master’s group does. That is why they are faster. Don’t compare yourself to what other triathletes do at a Masters workout. That will only lead you to mediocre results. Watch what the 10 year olds do; they swim every day, they swim hard, they swim for over an hour, THEY GET FASTER. At the same time you will kill them on the bike and on a run; that doesn’t really make sense does it?

Genetics might start to play a role at around 5:00 for a 500, but pretty much any boy/man can get to 5:00 for a 500 with a little hard work at the pool on a very regular basis. I think 5:00 is actually pretty conservative.

*Disclaimer: I am assuming you are talking about swimming freestyle. If you are talking about kicking without fins, without a board, then 1:20 is a tough interval. If you are talking about breaststroke, then 1:20 is a fairly tough interval.

12

DD is on in that it depends on what you are training for.
I am training for IMWI too, also shooting for sub 1hr. (What are you wearing and where will you be, so I can draft off you??).

Since I am IM training I am doing a lot of pacing work but also on short rest intervals. No more than 10 sec for 100’s, 15 sec for 200’s and so on up to a max of 30 seconds for 500’s. I also try to keep my splits as close to even as possible, maybe descending a little bit. I usually swim my 100 repeats on about 1:17-1:18 with 10 seconds rest.

If I was training for something shorter I may swim faster but with a lot more rest. So if I were training for the 100 free instead of 2.4 miles I may swim my 100’s on about 1:05 but with much more rest between each one.

I know the life guard that is at our pool at lunch is into swimming as her son was the Div III champ in the 50 free last year at nationals. She is always telling me how her boy trains but he does A LOT more speed work with longer rests at a LOT faster pace than what I swim.

13

I agree, was just teasing Ken since he was pulling my leg.

Yep, time in the water. And yep, I try to watch the faster folks.
I did some 1:19’s today which I was happy with. Every second now is hard
to take off, but I will keep working at it. At least in our sport,
these times put me in the FOP. Now, in any type of swim meet, even at my age,
I would be BOP so no way will I do a meet. :o(

Dave

14

It sounds like our swim abilities are fairly similar. Right now I’m swimming 1:15-18 per 100 scy on 1:30. With over 8 months until IMWI, I’m hesitant to push myself too hard too early. Back in 06 when I did IMWI, I think I peaked my swim in late July at Racine and I was dreading my swim workouts in August. If I keep my swim solid until June and then start to hit it good, hopefully we can draft off each other come Sept. 7 on our way to a sub 60 swim.

15

It sounds like our swim abilities are fairly similar. Right now I’m swimming 1:15-18 per 100 scy on 1:30. With over 8 months until IMWI, I’m hesitant to push myself too hard too early. Back in 06 when I did IMWI, I think I peaked my swim in late July at Racine and I was dreading my swim workouts in August. If I keep my swim solid until June and then start to hit it good, hopefully we can draft off each other come Sept. 7 on our way to a sub 60 swim.
I can’t justify the amount of time that it would take to get me from a 1:02 swimmer to sub 60. I would like to be able to say that I swam sub 60 (kinda like breaking the 1:00 mark in the 100scy), but it just seems that extra 2 hours a week in the pool is better spent training on the bike where improvements reap much greater benefits.

16

Swimming on a 1:20 base interval* has NOTHING to do with your parents. I recall the first time I did 100s on 1:20. I was 9. Most of the kids in the group were 10-12, but there was even a 6 or 7 year old in there. There are tons of tiny little 4 four-foot-six-inch children at school right now who will swim on a 1:20 base interval this afternoon. It has nothing to do with genetics. Frequency, intensity, duration. Measure and quantify each amount each week. Steadily increase overall training stress. The thing the 4’6’’ inch kids have going for them is they swim more than you or anyone in your Master’s group does. That is why they are faster. Don’t compare yourself to what other triathletes do at a Masters workout. That will only lead you to mediocre results. Watch what the 10 year olds do; they swim every day, they swim hard, they swim for over an hour, THEY GET FASTER. At the same time you will kill them on the bike and on a run; that doesn’t really make sense does it?

Genetics might start to play a role at around 5:00 for a 500, but pretty much any boy/man can get to 5:00 for a 500 with a little hard work at the pool on a very regular basis. I think 5:00 is actually pretty conservative.

*Disclaimer: I am assuming you are talking about swimming freestyle. If you are talking about kicking without fins, without a board, then 1:20 is a tough interval. If you are talking about breaststroke, then 1:20 is a fairly tough interval.

LOL!!! Perhaps the funniest thing ever written on ST!

Yes, it’s “Frequency, intensity, duration.” as you said, PLUS TECHNIQUE (which CAN be limited by genetics… you might not be able to physically do the right technique OR be unable to “get it”). Those 6-7 year olds have been swimming for what, 3 years? 2 years? Here comes the n=1 part. I’m 3 years into it, and I don’t think I could swim a 25y in the :15 it would take to crack a 1:00 pace. And I’d bet I’ve put in more work than your usual 6-7 year old.

So I’d take the near opposite of your theory. Only a very very small fraction of people could ever get to 5:00 for a 500y. So why can so many people do it? Because they are the small minority that made it through the filter. The masses got weeded out. They ended up playing other sports, or swimming in the dumpy rec center as became “strange denizens of the pool”!!! :slight_smile:

17

Swimming on a 1:20 base interval* has NOTHING to do with your parents. I recall the first time I did 100s on 1:20. I was 9. Most of the kids in the group were 10-12, but there was even a 6 or 7 year old in there. There are tons of tiny little 4 four-foot-six-inch children at school right now who will swim on a 1:20 base interval this afternoon. It has nothing to do with genetics. Frequency, intensity, duration. Measure and quantify each amount each week. Steadily increase overall training stress. The thing the 4’6’’ inch kids have going for them is they swim more than you or anyone in your Master’s group does. That is why they are faster. Don’t compare yourself to what other triathletes do at a Masters workout. That will only lead you to mediocre results. Watch what the 10 year olds do; they swim every day, they swim hard, they swim for over an hour, THEY GET FASTER. At the same time you will kill them on the bike and on a run; that doesn’t really make sense does it?

Genetics might start to play a role at around 5:00 for a 500, but pretty much any boy/man can get to 5:00 for a 500 with a little hard work at the pool on a very regular basis. I think 5:00 is actually pretty conservative.

*Disclaimer: I am assuming you are talking about swimming freestyle. If you are talking about kicking without fins, without a board, then 1:20 is a tough interval. If you are talking about breaststroke, then 1:20 is a fairly tough interval.

LOL!!! Perhaps the funniest thing ever written on ST!

Yes, it’s “Frequency, intensity, duration.” as you said, PLUS TECHNIQUE (which CAN be limited by genetics… you might not be able to physically do the right technique OR be unable to “get it”). Those 6-7 year olds have been swimming for what, 3 years? 2 years? Here comes the n=1 part. I’m 3 years into it, and I don’t think I could swim a 25y in the :15 it would take to crack a 1:00 pace. And I’d bet I’ve put in more work than your usual 6-7 year old.

So I’d take the near opposite of your theory. Only a very very small fraction of people could ever get to 5:00 for a 500y. So why can so many people do it? Because they are the small minority that made it through the filter. The masses got weeded out. They ended up playing other sports, or swimming in the dumpy rec center as became “strange denizens of the pool”!!! :slight_smile:

I don’t always agree with you, but I am taking your side on this one.

I’m currently working with a swim coach and I’m pretty happy to be swimming consistent sets of 4x3x100 (he’s a TI coach so I am working a lot on technique). My times are 1:33-35 and I’m doing them on 20 secs rest. To go from that to 1:00 100s for 500 yds will be impossible for me. I say impossible because I could not swim enough to get to that point and still do any running or biking (with our without PowerCranks :wink: Just as I can categorically state that I’ll never crack a 3:00 marathon, I can categorically state my swim could NEVER get that good…a combination of my current form & fitness coupled with my POTENTIAL…just isn’t going to happen. Anyone who says that 5:00 500 is conservative…is either kidding themselves or is simply just so immersed in being that good they don’t know what it’s like to be a “normal” age grouper without a lot of athletic talent.

I train around John Reback (sister to Laura Bennet) and see him at the track and on the road frequently. It’s depressing! He is not out there any more than I am, he doesn’t work any harder than I do…he is just naturally way more athletically gifted than I am or ever will be! Of couse, he trains too, but still, he could go for a year and not train and STILL beat me if I had been training 15 hours a week. That’s just the roll of the genetic dice. Yeah, training intensity, duration, frequency and focus play into it. But when push comes to shove, if I am operating at my VO2 max and so is he…he’s gonna win. And sorry boys and girls, VO2 Max is only trainable by about 10% (depending on which study you read). If everyone could become Lance Armstrong, or Chris McCormack, don’t you think more people would? The fact is, athletes of that caliber make up only a small fraction of a percent of the population…hence the term “elite”.

18

It is certainly possible you might not be able to devote enough time to swimming in your life in order to be able to go 5:00; however, I am willing to bet you could have gone 5:00 in a 500 if you did the work necessary growing up. Most kids who drop out from the swim team simply do not enjoy doing the work which is needed in order to get faster. Most high school boys who are distance swimmers and swim year round end up breaking 5:00 at some point.

If you got to a point where you averaged 40,000 yards per week, with the right training, for 50 weeks per year for 5 years, then I’m pretty sure you would get to 5:00 (women 5:25 or 5:30).

Of course this assumes the person devotes a significant portion of his life to swimming. That is highly unrealistic for an adult who did not swim growing up, so you don’t see adults make this kind of gain.

I agree there are certain limitations due to genetics; however, I think it is very safe to say genetics are not limiting anyone from swimming a 500 in 5:00. 10,000,000 yards over 4 years (roughly 24 miles per week) will get it done for pretty much anyone. The commitment is the limiter, not the genetics.

19

I have a question for you or for other swimming coaches, can you tell us what is a typical progression of an average kid (or an adult) new to swimming ? So when someone learns to swim freestyle, what would be his typical split for a 400m, how much would that improve with lets say every 100 hours of training ?
Please use any other progression scheme that makes more sense, I just want to get an idea…

20

Well put.