Swim training question.... (1)

Triathlon Forum
1

I’ll say sorry right from the start since I know beginner questions are a bit of an annoyance for most. I’m planning on trying out some tri’s, but want to get into a bit more shape first so realistically I’m probably looking at starting competition spring of 2010. I’m fine enough with the cycling portion as that is my background, running I’ll get started on soon enough, but right now I’m starting swimming and enjoying the workout. I had always been a fun type swimmer - surfing, lifesaving and all, but never anything structured or team oriented. Stopped swimming way to long ago and just started doing lap swimming at the local YMCA for about a month and a half now.

Where I am now with my swimming is I’m able to swim a steady pace 1+ mile 100% freestyle with no resting and soft touches on the wall…and I’m out to buy some jammer swim shorts tomorrow as baggie surf shorts aren’t working out so well :). My form is pretty decent, but I’m sure a coach could help me there and once I see what is available in my area, I’ll look into some outside assistance. But for the immediate future, should I just continue with building these “base” type miles with my swimming and slowly try and increase my speed over the longer distance or start throwing in some shorter sessions with intervals? Right now it usually takes about 1/4 mile for my arms to soften up enough where they stop feeling a bit sore and after that initial 1/4 mile my arms feel fine and the remaining laps are pretty much pain free. Again, I mention that I’m swimming just at a steady pace - nothing earth shattering.

I’m new the SlowTwitch so I’m still trying to search thru all the new and old articles as well as the forum messages for this and similar information.

Thanks
Michael

2

do a search on youtube for some swim drills. try them, and throw in some intervals. i didn’t speed up much just doing steady-state long swims, but improved my form with the drills, then knocked off about 12sec/100m in under 2 months after adding intervals. admittedly i’m far from fast, but i’m also still working on it :slight_smile:

i’ll let the fish recommend interval sessions, but i feel i improved my form (and my strokes per length dropped) by doing 1 arm drills and freestyle with clenched fists (helps early vertical forearm, and lets you feel how your arm surface assists your catch & pull). concentrating on keeping elbows high in the water, too, which can be assisted by a pull buoy (as it lets you focus entirely on your arms).

cheers!

-mistress k

3

Watching swim videos will improve your stroke like watching Bob Ross paint will make you Rembrandt.

Find a masters swim program that isn’t a water-aerobics-social-hour substitute, ask a coach for help and start swimming with people who are faster than you are. I speak from experience.

4

OP said they will be looking for a coach, and looking for stuff to do in the meantime. never said he should just watch videos of thorpe/phelps and try to “swim like that”, but there are some decent vids showing drills that could be helpful. i was taught basic front crawl in swimming lessons as a kid, but high elbow catch and body rotation were totally new to me a few months ago, and i’ve at least managed to get them working for me a little. i know a coach would be much better, but the wallet says no.

whatcha got against bob ross, anyway? :wink:

cheers!

-mistress k

5

I say you are on track. Looking for a coach is a great idea especially if you know your form is off and working with others is the best thing you can do. Masters swimming is great, most people there are there to have fun and just get some fitness so its an enjoyable experience at any level. So doing faster swimming right now may not be as beneficial because you may be setting up for injury that a coach would help you avoid (something technique related). I think that you are going about it in the right way, for now. You can break it down if you want into some smaller sets of a higher intensity say 500s instead of a 1650 (not much higher just get the blood pumping a little more). And go for the jammer purchase, that will increase how good you feel when you swim.

6

OP said they will be looking for a coach, and looking for stuff to do in the meantime. never said he should just watch videos of thorpe/phelps and try to “swim like that”, but there are some decent vids showing drills that could be helpful. i was taught basic front crawl in swimming lessons as a kid, but high elbow catch and body rotation were totally new to me a few months ago, and i’ve at least managed to get them working for me a little. i know a coach would be much better, but the wallet says no.

whatcha got against bob ross, anyway? :wink:

cheers!

-mistress k

I learned a lot from watching swim videos and reading articles. There was (and still is) a lot of value in that for me.

7

It sounds to me like you are proficient enough at the swim to be ready for a Master’s swim team. Half the people there will be fellow triathletes and the improvements you will make in that environment are far more than you would on your own.
At this point any flaws in your technique are being ingrained deeper and deeper with every workout so you need to get under tutelage ASAP.

As for the running thing, there was a beautiful post by BarryP yesterday about how to get started in running. It’s perfect for your situation. Just search on BARRYP and find his post from yesterday.

And most of us are very welcoming of beginners and their questions, no worries there.

8

If by “soft touches on the wall” means that you are not pushing of the wall hard, stop doing that and swim like a real swimmer would. Push off the wall underwater and fairly hard.

Thank me later

jaretj

9

You should look into the Total Immersion program. Google it and check your local library. There is a book and a video showing some technique drills that can be of real assistance.

10

You should look into the Total Immersion program. Google it and check your local library. There is a book and a video showing some technique drills that can be of real assistance.
Don’t do that. If you can swim a mile, you are already way past the point where TI could help.

For faster swimming, once you have the form down (And you said you are going to look at coaching), it’s all about the top end speed, and how long you can stay at or near it.

Two types of swimming will get you faster. Interval and Threshold.

Threshold swimming is sets near your threshold level, with short rest periods. If your drop dead 200 pace is 3:00 (1:30/100), then a set of something like 10x100 on 2:00 or possibly 1:50 is a threshold set. You get 1:50 to complete the 100 and your rest interval, and you are shooting for a rest of about 10-15 seconds. If you can’t make it all at 1:50, try it the next time at 1:55. Or, if you try it at 2:00 and make it with 20 seconds rest each time, do it at 1:55 next time.

Interval swimming is at (or faster depending) your 100% pace, with long rest intervals. If you can go 1:30/100 (as an example) pace for 200, then you should be able to do 100’s at maybe 1:20-1:25, and 50’s in 35-40. So, a set like 10x50 on 2:00, hold :35 (Means hold every 50 at :35 or under, with approx 1:20 rest) would be an interval set.

Intervals are to boost your top speed, threshold is designed to increase the time you can spend at or near top speed.

There are a couple varieties of Tpace tests you can do to determine your threshold pace, and once you have that, just start plugging in numbers.

You can also do a search for “Fishtwitch”, “FLAJill”, “JustOld”, “JYeager” or “tigerchik” for other swimming advice posts and some excellent workout examples.

John

11

You should look into the Total Immersion program. Google it and check your local library. There is a book and a video showing some technique drills that can be of real assistance.
Don’t do that. If you can swim a mile, you are already way past the point where TI could help.

I don’t think so. Lots of people can swim a mile with poor stroke mechanics. I think the biggest benefit of the TI system is that it allows for self-teaching of proper and efficient arm and body position. Interval training is a must to get fast, but not without also working on technique.

12

Swimming at a steady pace is not going to offer you any benefits, apart from helping you to swim slow and steady. IF you want to swim faster, do as Devlin indicated, intervals. Triathletes always think about threshold on the bike, and run, but plod up and down doing drills and swimming steady in the pool. The same holds true, do
10 x 100 at 90-95% of max, and take 10 seconds or so at the end and repeat. While doing this, make sure you are swimming under control.

As far as your arms, where do they ache, the triceps? If so, do some bicep curls, light weight, high reps.

13

You should look into the Total Immersion program. Google it and check your local library. There is a book and a video showing some technique drills that can be of real assistance.
Don’t do that. If you can swim a mile, you are already way past the point where TI could help.

For faster swimming, once you have the form down (And you said you are going to look at coaching), it’s all about the top end speed, and how long you can stay at or near it.

Two types of swimming will get you faster. Interval and Threshold.

Threshold swimming is sets near your threshold level, with short rest periods. If your drop dead 200 pace is 3:00 (1:30/100), then a set of something like 10x100 on 2:00 or possibly 1:50 is a threshold set. You get 1:50 to complete the 100 and your rest interval, and you are shooting for a rest of about 10-15 seconds. If you can’t make it all at 1:50, try it the next time at 1:55. Or, if you try it at 2:00 and make it with 20 seconds rest each time, do it at 1:55 next time.

Interval swimming is at (or faster depending) your 100% pace, with long rest intervals. If you can go 1:30/100 (as an example) pace for 200, then you should be able to do 100’s at maybe 1:20-1:25, and 50’s in 35-40. So, a set like 10x50 on 2:00, hold :35 (Means hold every 50 at :35 or under, with approx 1:20 rest) would be an interval set.

Intervals are to boost your top speed, threshold is designed to increase the time you can spend at or near top speed.

There are a couple varieties of Tpace tests you can do to determine your threshold pace, and once you have that, just start plugging in numbers.

You can also do a search for “Fishtwitch”, “FLAJill”, “JustOld”, “JYeager” or “tigerchik” for other swimming advice posts and some excellent workout examples.

John

To the OP, as a non-swimmer (me), listen to what Dev says. This is one of, maybe the, best post that I have seen that lays it out in an easy-to-understand way (again, for non-swimmers). FLAJill, tigerchik, etc are equally as helpful and swim knowledgeable.

Thanks, Dev, for posting this. A huge help.

14

I’m far from a fish, but I think “self-teaching” and “proper and efficient arm and body position” are oxymoronic when it comes to swimming, mostly because what you feel like is happening and what is actually happening are often vastly different.

As far as TI, this was a pretty good thread that sums up the drawbacks if your objective is to swim as fast as possible:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2391745;search_string=;#2391745

15

Swimming is my strongest leg, and a couple things have really helped be get good at it. It is possible to self teach, but get a camcorder and a friend to tape you and you can compare with online videos. Even the self coached can find the differences.

  1. Everyone says do drills, but know the point of the drill you are doing. My favorite drills are 1 arm drills, with the other arm by your side. Do one length right arm, one length left arm. Focus on the stroking arm being consistent through the whole stroke and make sure you are rotating your body both directions. Flat swimming = slow swimming. Elbow always higher than wrist, wrist higher than fingers.

  2. The path your arm takes through the water is very important. #1 thing I see in other beginner swimmers is the arm crossing over the center line of the body. It makes people wiggle down the pool instead of swimming straight. Act like there is a board separating the left and right sides of the body- don’t cross that line. #2 thing I see is the opposite- people have their arms outside their body- swimming like you would with a surfboard underneath you. Your hand should exit the water within the thumbs length of your hip. For these people, do a drill where you stick your thumb out and drag it along your side during the recovery(thumbs up the side drill). Work on your stroke path with 1 arm drills. If you have a consistent path with a consistent roll, you will get faster quickly.

  3. Training: my favorite training for triathlon are sets that mimic my races. Hard at first, then settle in to a good strong pace. for example:

3x{
1 x 300 fast but controlled- 90% effort :10s rest
4x 150 @ race pace- :05 s rest between. Hold same time for each 150. If you die on #4, you went out too hard. back it off the next round.
50 EZ recovery @ 2:00
}

Getting used to finding your pace after the initial sprint is VERY hard to do. It takes these types of sets to find that pace you can hold.

16

a lot of good posts. Your question was specific to what type of training to get, so it’s best to get evulated by someone who knows their stuff and have them recommend your next step. There are many good Masters swim coaches, tri coaches, and just great swimmers that may be able to take a look at you and give a quick recommend.

Without seeing you swim, it’s a tough one to answer. Good luck!

Gerry

17

Not to hi-jack but if you can’t swim the 1500 meters straight yet would one be better served by building a semblance of endurance and plodding along at whatever pace one can manage for a few weeks until you can make the distance and then work on building speed or start out by doing 100M repeats and build the endurance that way? I am still working on keeping the heart rate down and not going into oxygen debt (even at a slow pace).

18

Not to hi-jack but if you can’t swim the 1500 meters straight yet would one be better served by building a semblance of endurance and plodding along at whatever pace one can manage for a few weeks until you can make the distance and then work on building speed or start out by doing 100M repeats and build the endurance that way? I am still working on keeping the heart rate down and not going into oxygen debt (even at a slow pace).
Not really. You’d be better served by swimming shorter segments with shortish rest. Much like if you can’t run 3 miles, you run 400 yards, walk 100 yards, run 400, walk 100 until you complete it. (Or along those lines). If you are going into oxygen debt, then one of two things are happening - You’re going way too fast for your fitness, or you are not breathing properly.

Given the experience I’ve had working with newish swimmers, I’d be willing to bet with a fairly high level of certainty that it’s the latter problem, not the former. :wink:

John

19

Given the experience I’ve had working with newish swimmers, I’d be willing to bet with a fairly high level of certainty that it’s the latter problem, not the former. :wink:

Ding! You are correct! I am just learning how to breathe. It isn’t easy because I tend to think about too many things at once: am I rotating my hips, where is my arm going into the water, where is my elbow when I am catching, am I going straight anymore, look I have some water in my goggles, this chlorine is really strong, wow my heart is hammering and I am getting tired. The next thing I know I forgot to breathe and have to rush it and then it is a game of catchup. You get the drift.

20

Given the experience I’ve had working with newish swimmers, I’d be willing to bet with a fairly high level of certainty that it’s the latter problem, not the former. :wink:

Ding! You are correct! I am just learning how to breathe. It isn’t easy because I tend to think about too many things at once: am I rotating my hips, where is my arm going into the water, where is my elbow when I am catching, am I going straight anymore, look I have some water in my goggles, this chlorine is really strong, wow my heart is hammering and I am getting tired. The next thing I know I forgot to breathe and have to rush it and then it is a game of catchup. You get the drift.
Big tip (And don’t laugh, you’d be surprised how many do this) - Don’t hold your breath underwater. Learn to breath out in a steady rhythm. It’s just like running and cycling. I see many people thinking that since their face is in the water, they have to hold their breath. Then they try to breath out and in really quickly, and they either glide forever on their side (and sinking), or they gasp in/out and basically hyperventilate.

Learning to swim does take a lot of time. Use your drills to concentrate on improving your form. When you’re swimming, only pick one or two things to think about. (I suggest breathing as one. ;-)~ )

Ben Hogan (golfer) used to say something along the lines of that if he only had one thing to think about in his swing, he could win the tournament. If he had to think about two things, he might be able to win. Three things or more and he might as well go home.

Use your drills to work on various parts of the stroke, when you swim for a workout only concentrate on one or two.

John