Ok so for bike and run it is approximately 90 per min
Any such recommendation for swim stroke rate?
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I use a Tempo Timer for a lot of my swim training. I train in the range of 1.09-1.03 secs/stroke. That equates to around 72-80 strokes/100. Then again, I’m a very slow swimmer.
I used the TT during the FL 70.3 race last weekend. I set the cadence at 1.06 and used it the entire race. That equates to around 57 strokes per minute. Exitint the swim, my HR was only 154 9191 max, so pretty good).
Faster swimmers/pros are probably swimming in the neighborhood of .97-…87 which equates to around 62-69 strokes per minute.
You really can’t put a stroke rate on the most efficient and fastest way to swim. As an example, I can swim a 50 free in 30 seconds taking 18 strokes or I can do it in 40 strokes. The conditions of an open water swim will cause my stroke rate to vary. Like Running and Cycling, my turnover rate in swimming will greatly vary according to how I am swimming at that given time. If I had to put a number on it, in a pool I am about 50 strokes/100yards and it would be slighty higher than that open water because there are not turns so about 58/100yards or about 62/100 meters. If I do my math correctly…In a race at a cruising pace of about 1:10 per 100 meters I am at about 36 strokes a minute.
To answer your questions I would say 37 strokes a minute with a range of +/- 4 strokes.
Edit: changed my estimates a bit…
Think about it. If you’re grabbing and holding water your stroke count across the pool should remain constant regardless of speed. This is different than running, where regardless of speed your foot is not slipping relative to the ground.
Therefore… stroke rate is directly related to speed.
I think it is an error to target a particular stroke rate. Target increasing your stroke rate while maintaining proper form.
I have been using a tempo trainer (like a metronome) and it is pretty informative. Time yourself at different rates. For me, there is a definite point where I don’t swim much faster with a quicker stroke rate.
In actuality - unless you’re preparing to do a 50yd sprint - you actually want to work on decreasing your stroke rate while still becoming more efficient and thus faster. The more technically correct your stroke is the less energy you’ll waste on every stroke while still going faster which is what you want in triathlons. The goal in swimming is not to move your arms as fast as possible but rather get from one end of the pool to the other as quickly as possible. If you can do that in 10 strokes versus the energy required to do the same time but using 40 strokes you want to shoot for the 10.
The worlds best swimmers and the top triathlete swimmers do not thrash through the water with an incredibly high turnover (the 50m sprint aside) but rather are long and strong so that they maximize the effort and energy from each and every arm stroke. As a triathlete the benefit is that you can come out of the water earlier but have increased energy reserves to put towards the bike and the run.
Actually, the coach who has been working with me (coaches national level HS and college kids) said sort of the opposite. He demonstrated that given water’s density, you are constantly braking after you stroke. He recommended keeping a stroke rate that maintains constant forward thrust rather than having to accelerate every stroke. I am by no means a fast swimmer, and he has me working with the tempotrainer at 85. It feels like a sprint now, but I am admittedly not in great swim shape. By doing this, he maintains that there will be less decceleration and thus more efficiency. He is a pool guy, but he knows open water swimming, too. I think you can probably get 100 different opinions from 100 different coaches, though. And, I am racing mostly Sprint/Oly stuff for now, so speed is my friend.
There’s a ton of variation in stroke rate among elite swimmer, especially when you start comparing men to women.
USA swimming has put some Olympic Trials data up on the public part of their web site. From the 800 free/1500 free Trials finals in 2004, the the lowest tempo (cycles per minute) comes from Larsen Jensen at 35 arm cycles per minute. The highest tempo goes to Alyssa Kiel at 61 cycles per minute. Second highest tempo goes to Brooke Bennet at 56 cycles per minute.
Both Bennett and Larsen were huge players always capable of making the finals of the big international meets. So which one was the better technical swimmer? Bennett won more golds, but Jensen had far tougher competition he was facing.
I see it as like cycling- do you spin or mash? In the water, it takes a lot of arm strength to be a successful masher, more so than as a cyclist. The swimmers that have lesser upper body strength (ie. frequently the female fish) ofen do have better success when they go the spin route and don’t try to muscle every last bit of power out of a given stroke but instead ‘gear it down’ a little and keep cadence up even if you give up a little power/distance per stroke in the process.
Of course, this is assuming that you’ve got good technique to begin with and you aren’t using a high stroke rate to cover up technical flaws.
You really can’t put a stroke rate on the most efficient and fastest way to swim. As an example, I can swim a 50 free in 30 seconds taking 18 strokes or I can do it in 40 strokes. The conditions of an open water swim will cause my stroke rate to vary. Like Running and Cycling, my turnover rate in swimming will greatly vary according to how I am swimming at that given time. If I had to put a number on it, in a pool I am about 50 strokes/100yards and it would be slighty higher than that open water because there are not turns so about 58/100yards or about 62/100 meters. If I do my math correctly…In a race at a cruising pace of about 1:10 per 100 meters I am at about 36 strokes a minute.
To answer your questions I would say 37 strokes a minute with a range of +/- 4 strokes.
Edit: changed my estimates a bit…
Dear lord I want a “cruising” pace of 1:10…
Optimal stroke rate for swimmers in a pool depends upon lots of factors. Generally speaking, the longer your arms and the longer your body relative to your legs (i.e., the shorter your legs), the farther you can swim with each stroke and the slower your stroke rate will be per unit of distance all things being equal. Conversely, the shorter your arms and the shorter your body relative to your legs, the shorter your stroke length and the faster your optimal stroke rate all things being equal. Swimmers with subtantially different bodies will swim with substantially different stroke rates, but will achieve very similar results. This is also not entirely dependent on the distance of the race as Janet Evans, the best female distance freestyler ever had an incredibly fast turnover.
Once you get into open water, there is another set of variables that affect what your optimal stroke rate and length is going to be. As conditions get rougher, you are probably going to want to have a shorter, faster, stroke all things being equal. Also, there are tactical issues involved related to drafting that aren’t nearly as important for pool swimmers.
I see it as like cycling- do you spin or mash? In the water, it takes a lot of arm strength to be a successful masher, more so than as a cyclist. The swimmers that have lesser upper body strength (ie. frequently the female fish) ofen do have better success when they go the spin route and don’t try to muscle every last bit of power out of a given stroke but instead ‘gear it down’ a little and keep cadence up even if you give up a little power/distance per stroke in the process.
This is interesting stuff.
To swim with a faster turnover but the same speed/power, does that then mean that the swimmer intentionally slips a little in the water to reduce the strength required to pull and makes up for it with turnover? Or is it a shortening of the pull? Because if they slow down the pull to reduce the strength needed, then their turnover would drop.
It’s not realy intentional, it’s just as you increase turnover, you naturally become less efficient. In other words, a 100% turnover increase will not produce a 100% increase in speed.
Think of a boat prop. It has a range of rpms where it is most efficient. Too slow and it doesn’t produce enough thrust to propel the boat. Too fast and the blade cavitates (slips) and loses thrust. When you are sprinting as a swimmer, you lose some efficiency and make up for it with higher turnover. To a certain extent, that works. But, if you increase turnover too much, and your stroke loses too much efficiency, you actually slow down. The key is to lose as little efficiency as possible at as high of a turnover possible.
The way it was explained to me seems to compliment your point: You need to find the cadence that allows you to maintain speed without exploding over time. The tempotrainer really forces you to push your tempo/cadence (like tempo running) so that you eventually find the best tempo that is the most efficient. Basically, as it was explained to me, that point is when your next catch engages as or just before you start to lose speed. Obviously, different water conditions and drafting issues would alter this greatly. I think most people aim to survive the swim rather than “race” it (ST constituents excluded). Thats fine, and the time savings are debated here all the time. For me, I like to come out of the water near the front so there is less traffic in transition and on the road. Then, everbody catches me during my pathetic run.
I think you’re right that about asking 100 different coaches and you’ll get 100 different answers. My old coach through highschool and college - who is also the one who trained me for Senior Nationals and NCAA’s in distance free events always focused on keeping strokes long and keeping turnover lower. In the past he was also the US National Coach for Open Water Swimming World Championships. I’m not saying this to argue with you but to agree that very qualified people will give you very different answers for a variety of reasons.
when i was at monty’s swim camp last year i got to see bjorn swim, as well as monty,they looked like (above the water) that they were just cruising and going slow by the tempo they swam at but 14 or so strokes and 1.10 per 100 later my thinking quickly changed. they just grab alot of water but also have the strength to hold it. at this time i can not seem to hold enough water to move quickly but the tempo trainer would seem to force you to keep working which then would improve your strength