Swim plateau (1)

Triathlon Forum
1

Getting really frustrated at my swimming progress or lack off… Been at the same spot for 5 month and not sure what to do.

So for 100y intervals, i’ve been swimming them at like 1:25-1:27 at a decent tempoish pace for the past 5 month…Most of my workouts are between 3000-4500, and I swim roughly 5-6x a week averaging around 18,000-19,000y a week. So some weeks i go slightly below 18k, and some weeks i hit well above 20k at around like 23k. During faster 100y intervals, where i leave at every 2mins, I can make it at like 1:21/100, I’ve never made it <1:20 but I know if i hammer hard I can make like a 1:19 maybe once or twice in a workout.

I’ve been swimming for about 2.5 years now, and I’m not sure how to break through this plateau. Many times when i try increase volume, my back gets really sore and make the intervals and sometimes dip down to 1:29/100y for 100y repeats. In fact, I had a 5000y workout planned, but only made it to 3500 before I felt that my form was deteriorating and getting slower and more sorer every interval. What’s worse is that even if i take 1 day off swimming, the next day i come back i know i probably won’t be making progress, the feel is totally off, and usually on the 2nd or 3rd day i start feeling normal again.

Not sure what to do at this point, should i just keep doing what i’m doing and hope that i’ll still improve?

2

You may be like me. I don’t really vary by much more than 5s/100 over a season going from untrained to race ready. What is your swimming background like? I came up through the county ranks in the UK - state level USA. I swim about 1:20 flat out for a 100, a decent set hitting about 1:27-1:30 on repeats in the off season, and drop to about 1:15 flat out and around 1:23-25 repping through a set the week before an Ironman. For me, I cannot increase my arm tempo. I am a strong and slow stroker. If you are over gliding, then you should work on your tempo, but that is easier said than done. I find that if I increase my arm speed, I fatigue quickly, and my stroke gets out of whack as the session goes on.

What are your target races? You are swimming around my pace by the sounds of things, so 53-55 min Ironman swim time? I have come to accept that this is really good enough for me - front of age group pack, off the back of the pros, but then I am not going to ever race pro. If you are doing races such as ITU at a high level where speed is of the essence, then you need to look at form, strength and tempo. If you increase your ability in these three, you will go quicker.

Are you doing weights?
Is your stroke as refined as it can be, or are you an ‘Arnie’ in the water?
Is your stroke tempo too slow?

Now, it isn’t a case of just increasing your tempo and you will go faster. Like me, your stroke might go to hell and you will be slower.

If you are a somewhat lazy swimmer as I am, then I would recommend two things:

I have joined a masters squad this year - not because I need to increase my swim time as it is, but because it is more fun. I am however seeing some good results, and I am probably at my summer speed now in February, so it is a little bit of a voyage into the unknown with regards to what speed I can get to for July. The other thing this has done is push me. As I say, I am lazy in the water. The squad I am with were national champions last year and I just about hang on the back of lane 1.

Secondly, if you need to increase speed, how about doing very short reps? A set like 20 x 25m with plenty of rest at each end - repping on a minute say? This will increase your tempo over time, and potentially your power as a result. It will take time, but you will hopefully get used to swimming a slightly higher tempo which will translate into your longer swims.

It is easy I think for us triathletes to be quite lazy with our swims. We focus on long sessions and don’t truly push ourselves. Get in, knock out 20 x 100’s or something similar holding a steady tempo, but don’t truly get out of sorts. I have left some sessions with my masters squad unable to pull myself out of the pool or open doors for the next few hours. Eye opening.

3

Thanks for your inputs,
I have no swim background, honestly just started swimming 2.5 years ago for triathlons. I was a runner to begin with. This year I’m 24 years old. I also do weights like 2-3x a week.

My goal is to a 1:25/100y for 1500m for olympic distance nationals in august, so still working on that daily.

Might definitely need to change up my workouts, most of my sessions involves pulling, and just 100y intervals. I think I might need to start doing 50’s and 25’s as the hard sets as opposed to like 10-15x 100’s with some pull efforts.

Also, If you push yourself so hard in the pool where it’s hard to open doors, wouldn’t that affect your session tomorrow? Or would you just do like a 4k pulling set slog in the pool the day after cuz doing intervals probably won’t be effective.

4

Good job for starting swimming. I swim 4 times a week, so arms being sore not really an issue as I just run or bike when feeling knackered. Your body also adapts and I may for instance out in a suffer fest on a Monday night and then easy 2-3km on the tuesday. As you adapt, you get less heavy armed.

If you are just doing 100’s, then yes, break this down to some 50’s and 25’s. You have to force the body to adapt. If you swim 1:25 now, break that down to being able to swim 2 x 50 in say 40s each to make a 1:20 100 and then gradually reduce your eat interval between the 50’s if that makes sense until you can swim a 100 in 1:20

5

That’s pretty solid for 2.5 yrs of swimming!

It’s important as to how long you’ve been doing 18+k/wk, which is not a trivial amount.

I only have done that much volume (roughly) last year for about 4-5 months on a swim-focus block, and I did 80% of that volume on a Vasa trainer, which at least for me seems to work equivalent to a pool (every ‘yard’ I swim on the Vasa gives at least as much benefit as a yard in the pool, at least for me.)

My paces got to pretty much where yours are - it must be near the midpoint of the bell curve in terms of ROI for effort, I suspect, as I know for sure I’m not a talented athlete (I’ve tried hard in running and proven that decisvely with results with 100+mpw of running as well as my horrendous swim progress).

For sure, the first 6 weeks of me doing that sort of volume were marked by overall beatdown, fatigue, and unimpressive gains, mainly because I was so tired or my arms were so tired. It wasn’t until about 10 wks in when I suddenly noticed that I was 5sec/100 faster at everything, and voila - I was suddenly dipping sub 1:20/100 on hard 100s. I think the fact that you’re swimming to the point where things get sore indicates you’re likely in the acclimation phase when your speeds and energy take a hit before you come back stronger. I think you’re doing it right - if you’re swimming so much that your arms are flagging and your back is getting sore, you’re doing enough to significantly improve - at least that’s what it took for me to break thru my plateau.

You probably won’t see all the benefits of your good volume until you do a significant pullback, such as for a race, and swim like <10k/wk - after you’re rested, you’ll kill it.

6

What does a 4k workout look like for you? Are you doing any longer sets, like 200’s and 400’s? Do you swim with other people or always on your own? How hard are you working during the session? Do you feel fresh for each workout and then wiped out at the end, or do you start closer to wiped out at the beginning?

One of the key workouts I did prior to some big 70.3 races was 17x200 ~10sec rest (2:45 pace time in scy for me). I found the longer intervals were very beneficial for pushing into that red zone more than 100’s or 50’s. Also remember some great 5x400 workouts.

7

Some people don’t get faster than that. I swam with good teams and good coaches for 4 years in high school. Over that duration, my best 10x100 cruise interval was 1:20. I wasn’t going to get much faster than that.

In races (in mid 90s) that made me an average high schooler, 57 or so 100 free, I think I broke 24 in 50.

8

Haha thanks! I’m not talented either just love to train.

I feel like I have the potential to get a lot faster than a 1:25/100 tempo pace because one of my friends who started as a swimmer who swims 26mins for 1.2mile for a 70.3 is a much slower cyclist than me, but we’ve been in the sport of triathlon for similar period of time, and neither of us has a cycling background. This makes me think that I have the lungs and heart to be that fast as well. Also, he’s shorter than me too and he swims that fast!

9

a 4k workout usually consists of something like

800 (warm up)
800 (200pulls x 4)
800 (8x 100 @ 1:40 or 1:50 depending on how i feel)
800 (2x 400 pulls)
800 (8x100 @ 2:00)
200-300 Cool down.

I found that workout on a youtube video for Tower26 by gerry rodrigues and use it religiously. It’s usually some sort of variation of the above.

I plan on doing more 200’s-500’s repeats as I get closer to race season and need to dial in the race efforts, right now just trying to get fast at the shorter distance. Not sure if that’s the absolute best approach, always open to suggestions, but that’s just my current way of periodizing.

10

Problem is that I have friends from back in the day who made it to olympic sort of level, but didn’t mean that I did. You’re young. You can definitely improve through year in year out training, and you are yet to hit your physical peak, certainly for the longer stuff. I guess it is really about deciding your goals and then going for them. If you up your swimming miles, will the bike and run suffer? What is going to make the most amount of difference to your triathlon time? I could swim another 3 nights a week with my masters squad, but swimming is my strength, and I am better served by getting some runs in. If you are unemployed or pro then you can of course plough in as many hours as your body can take, but for the majority of us there comes a point where you think yeah that’ll do.

If you did drop your pace from 1:25 to 1:15, that will make around 3 mins of difference in a 70.3 swim lets say. Trouble is, how many hours of training does that equate to, and would you be better served dropping your run from 1:45 to 1:25 (let’s assume) with that same amount of training time? Maybe the swim is your weak discipline in which case you must be a pretty strong triathlete!

Anyway, simply upping the volume isn’t the key here. It’s what you are doing in these sessions that makes the difference. I would suggest that you maybe need to review what you do and look at upping the tempo with the swim. I think it is the one sport of the three that you can thrash yourself day in day out and not get injured, well less likely to get injured. Find a masters group, go in lane 1 and hang on for dear life!

11

I’m justing going to chime in and say you and I are seriously identical w/ regard to ability/age/etc. You swim a bit more than me, but I’m interested in seeing more input.

12

So your 8x 100s are on a 1:40 -2:00 interval and you’re repeatedly coming in at 1:25 (Just clarifying that I’ve gathered the correct info)? Aerobic swim intervals are not like a track workout or even bike intervals. You really want to get to a point where you can hold 8x100 on an interval where you’re getting maybe less than 5 seconds rest and still holding that steady 1:25 pace. I think you need to build your aerobic capacity so try dropping that interval time and get less rest time. You’ll get slower before you get faster, and it won’t be pleasant, but that’ll get you closer to your 1:25 pace over 1500m than your speed at a rested 100.

13

For swimming, form ALWAYS trumps fitness. Fitness makes it easier to unlock form, but form is king.

To go to the next level you need to start being self critical about your stroke, figure out what you are doing wrong and try to correct it. There are lots of video and written examples about correct swimming form, so it isn’t hard to see and know what the goal is. Almost every mediocre swimmer has no catch and drop their elbow or straight arm it. Developing a catch and maintaining high elbows are relatively easy to do, the kinetic feedback is immediate because you will be instantly faster. From there you can work on other balance, positioning, kick and timing deficiencies.

14

Here are a couple things to keep in mind when training for the swim as a triathlete:

  • you are not in the water enough to train from a metabolic perspective. Most distance swimmers train 20-25hrs a week and swim 85-100k a week. Even 50k a week is not a lot of volume.

  • the open water swim in a triathlon is not a distance swim; its a sprint followed by very effective drafting. Don’t train it like a distance swim.

  • consistency trumps volume for most triathletes

  • training and technique can’t be separated from one another. They build on each other. Most triathletes, however, don’t have enough swimming specific strength and conditioning to get to more efficient technique. Don’t worry about a lot of drill work. Swim fast a lot. Use the pace clock.

  • don’t swim alone unless your local masters team is total crap

  • if you aren’t faster than around 1:10/100 don’t use paddles. They will make you faster with paddles but a lot slower without.

  • don’t use a pull buoy

  • the pace clock is your power meter. Use it.

  • swim short, fast repeats

  • find a swim coach with a proven track record of getting triathletes faster in the water.

I hope this helps.

Tim

15

I made some solid swim gains two winters ago swimming around 13-16k a week from January to April. I was able to drop my 500 yd time from around 8:10 to 7:05 - still no means fast, but it got me to around 31 min in a HIM swim. I did lots of longer sets of 100’s up to 40x100 on a 1:40 to 1:35 send off time. My fastest 100 TT was 1:11 - wanted to get under 1:10, but it simply didn’t happen.

I agree with with some others have said - drop your rest a bit. Also, make sure you are doing some days of fast 50’s and even 25’s. Something like two rounds of 20x50 hard with around 10 sec or less of rest will help out. That speed will eventually translate to longer swims.

16

Thank you all for your posts!

Looks like some new things i’ll be focusing on
-Vary up my sets with more 25’s 50’s
-I might throw away the long 400x2 pulls and put them with the 25’s and 50’s, keep the 100 repeats too.
-Lower rest period
-try swimming less with a pull bouy (Gonna be hard)

Thanks all!!

17

Here are a couple things to keep in mind when training for the swim as a triathlete:

  • you are not in the water enough to train from a metabolic perspective. Most distance swimmers train 20-25hrs a week and swim 85-100k a week. Even 50k a week is not a lot of volume.

  • the open water swim in a triathlon is not a distance swim; its a sprint followed by very effective drafting. Don’t train it like a distance swim.

  • consistency trumps volume for most triathletes

  • training and technique can’t be separated from one another. They build on each other. Most triathletes, however, don’t have enough swimming specific strength and conditioning to get to more efficient technique. Don’t worry about a lot of drill work. Swim fast a lot. Use the pace clock.

  • don’t swim alone unless your local masters team is total crap

  • if you aren’t faster than around 1:10/100 don’t use paddles. They will make you faster with paddles but a lot slower without.

  • don’t use a pull buoy

  • the pace clock is your power meter. Use it.

  • swim short, fast repeats

  • find a swim coach with a proven track record of getting triathletes faster in the water.

I hope this helps.

Tim

100% great advice. Most of my intervals these days are 25-200.

The tempo trainer pro is my pacer/training partner.

Swam a 2.04 200 Free (SCM) in season after my 400 IM. No where near my lifetime pb but a decent in season time for masters. One of my former coaches swam a bunch of races… more than decent shape for a 49 yr old…

18

Here are a couple things to keep in mind when training for the swim as a triathlete:

  • you are not in the water enough to train from a metabolic perspective. Most distance swimmers train 20-25hrs a week and swim 85-100k a week. Even 50k a week is not a lot of volume.

  • the open water swim in a triathlon is not a distance swim; its a sprint followed by very effective drafting. Don’t train it like a distance swim.

  • consistency trumps volume for most triathletes

  • training and technique can’t be separated from one another. They build on each other. Most triathletes, however, don’t have enough swimming specific strength and conditioning to get to more efficient technique. Don’t worry about a lot of drill work. Swim fast a lot. Use the pace clock.

  • don’t swim alone unless your local masters team is total crap

  • if you aren’t faster than around 1:10/100 don’t use paddles. They will make you faster with paddles but a lot slower without.

  • don’t use a pull buoy

  • the pace clock is your power meter. Use it.

  • swim short, fast repeats

  • find a swim coach with a proven track record of getting triathletes faster in the water.

I hope this helps.

Tim

100% great advice. Most of my intervals these days are 25-200.

The tempo trainer pro is my pacer/training partner.

Swam a 2.04 200 Free (SCM) in season after my 400 IM. No where near my lifetime pb but a decent in season time for masters. One of my former coaches swam a bunch of races… more than decent shape for a 49 yr old…

Glenn C (58) swam a 19:17 1500 - long course.

19

http://youtu.be/RQ2D3v-gDb8

Glenn’s late wife Jeanne was 18xx over 50 for scm 1500. Always too 3 in her AG globally.

20

Nice 200 fly… you coming to Nationals in May?