During off season training, the focus will be on short distance running to get some speed back. However, I am a poor swimmer that needs technique improvement more than swim fitness. Appx 1:50/scy100.
So, while focusing on run training, the goal is to get to the pool frequently for drills and get the “golf score” down. I seem to be stuck at 90-91 (40 strokes and :50-:51 sec) again scy. I have been doing SPL, one arm drills, one arm breathing on off side, etc. Any suggestions to get me off this very poor plateau?
Stop worrying about stroke count and work on increasing your stroke rate without losing stroke effectiveness (i.e., don’t thrash). Your time/stroke ratio (about 1.2sec/stroke) is rather high. Unless you are kicking a lot and very effectively, you could be slowing way down between pulls and having to accelerate back up to speed each stroke.
Paddles might be useful in ensuring that you don’t slip water in your pull, but be careful of injury.
Thanks, I’ve been told I slow down between strokes. I’ll try stroking faster, but will quickly lose the ability to get 20SPL which I always hear is the “gold” standard. Also, I won’t get the benefit of a greatly reduced time. I really admire the swimmers that are taking about 17 SPL and flying through the water. I’m not a newbie and have seen little improvement over the years regardless of lessons. I’m always given drills and feel I can do them on my own.
Really appreciate the math re: stroke rate per second and have never given that a thought. Is their a rate you think is optimum?
I have gotten video’d 2 or 3 times. Not sure if I can get them on my computer or attach to this forum. I will give it a try later in the day. Appreciate any help as I am a pretty decent athlete at many sports (including golf which is always compared to swimming re skill level), and can’t seem to be an “average” swimmer. Frustrating.
Thanks, I’ve been told I slow down between strokes. I’ll try stroking faster, but will quickly lose the ability to get 20SPL which I always hear is the “gold” standard. Also, I won’t get the benefit of a greatly reduced time. I really admire the swimmers that are taking about 17 SPL and flying through the water. I’m not a newbie and have seen little improvement over the years regardless of lessons. I’m always given drills and feel I can do them on my own.
Really appreciate the math re: stroke rate per second and have never given that a thought. Is their a rate you think is optimum?
Optimum is highly individual. I can get under 70 golf score with about the same number of strokes as you (25scy pool), which means my time/stroke rate is around .75sec/stroke, but I don’t know anyone else with that high a turnover. You will get the benefit of a greatly reduced time if your distance per stroke remains the same, which will happen if you don’t slip the water when you increase your tempo (hence the suggestion of paddles to reinforce the correct hand/arm path).
You may also have a hitch in your catch - most of us do. The paddles will help you feel it. You may also have a pause at the end of your stroke, before you begin recovery. All things that can slow you down.
I am not a great swimmer by any stretch of the imagination but my golf score in a lcm pool is the same or slightly lower than yours… the two “pauses” I list above are my biggest problems - when I focus to eliminate them, I am much faster.
Stroking faster will not help if your catch+pull are not efficient.
1:50 for 100 yards while taking 90 strokes is a combination that tells me that you are not traveling very far on each stroke. That is over 22 strokes per length, where a really good high school swimmer might take 13 or so (with a sizeable push off the flipturn). Not knowing much else about you, you should be able to get your stroke count down substantially.
I would suggest that you work on improving your reach and glide at the beginning of the stroke, and increasing your power and length of the stroke at the end.
To get a feel for the end of the stroke, try making your fingers brush your thigh as far down as possible just before pulling the hand out of the water at the end of your stroke. Many people find that this adds 6 inches or more to their stroke, because they were not following through to much past the top of their thigh, when they should go to the middle or bottom middle of their thigh. 6 inches x 16 strokes, and you have another 8 feet you have travelled.
Klehner and AndyPants-Can I infer that you are saying paddles will help with the catch and pull? I have been under the impression they are just for increasing lat strength (which I don’t think is a limiter for me).
I will look for the “hitches/hesitations” in the stroke as this is a good idea. I remember doing this once before when Dan Empfield wrote an article describing some drills that would let a person identify these, and they didn’t really show up. (I can’t remember well, but I think one arm drills was one of the drills he recommended).
Ken, I would also state that undoubtedly I need the coasting in order to reach 20SPL. If I speed up the count, and don’t take advantage of the coasting, I won’t reach that number. Now, I’m not hooked on reaching the number, if a higher count gets me the improvement I want. I guess you’re saying paddles will help me go feel the water better. I’m up for trying this and thank you for the suggestion. I do have to ask this question, though-If I can get a better feel with paddles, why do I feel like my hands have been removed when I take the paddles off? I’ve heard a lot about fist drills. Are they worth it?
I would say 80 strokes, instead of 90. But you are still correct in that I dont get the distance per stroke and will give your suggestions a try. Thanks. Like I said previously, I really admire those that can take 16-17 SPL and leave me in their wake.
Klehner and AndyPants-Can I infer that you are saying paddles will help with the catch and pull? I have been under the impression they are just for increasing lat strength (which I don’t think is a limiter for me).
I will look for the “hitches/hesitations” in the stroke as this is a good idea. I remember doing this once before when Dan Empfield wrote an article describing some drills that would let a person identify these, and they didn’t really show up. (I can’t remember well, but I think one arm drills was one of the drills he recommended).
Ken, I would also state that undoubtedly I need the coasting in order to reach 20SPL. If I speed up the count, and don’t take advantage of the coasting, I won’t reach that number. Now, I’m not hooked on reaching the number, if a higher count gets me the improvement I want. I guess you’re saying paddles will help me go feel the water better. I’m up for trying this and thank you for the suggestion. I do have to ask this question, though-If I can get a better feel with paddles, why do I feel like my hands have been removed when I take the paddles off? I’ve heard a lot about fist drills. Are they worth it?
Don’t mean to be a pain, just frustrated.
Paddles: the ad absurdum (which is actually done) limit is to be able to use paddles without anything holding them to your hand. The point is to always have the paddle (and by extension the hand/forearm) perpendicular to the travel path, thus maximizing the force vector. If you were to swim with a watch loosely clasped, you might feel the water flow between the watch and your arm when you are dropping your elbow, for instance. Use a small paddle to not mess with your shoulders, as this isn’t a strength-building exercise. Since the paddles have more surface area, you can exert more total force. Since swimming isn’t strength-limited, you have excess strength that you can use when employing paddles, so you feel that loss when the paddles come off.
Hesitation: do fist swimming. If you aren’t pulling the whole time, you’ll know it as you’ll stop dead in the water. Even better would be using rubber tubing tying you to the wall behind you. It’s amazing how well you can detect dead spots in your pull that way.
The drills you hate the most are the ones you should be doing the most
My typical drill set looks like:
100m catchup
100m one arm (50m each arm - sometimes I do 100m per arm)
2x(50m fist+50m free)
2x(50m fingertip drag+50m free)
4x(100m hypoxic i.e.: breathe every 7 strokes)
When I used paddles, I do so to feel the hitch, as well as to work on a really sharp/crisp entry. If you entry sucks, you’ll really notice it with the paddles.
That’s amazing. I wonder if he can do that because he kicks so effectively? Or is it his strong pull that allows such a good glide? If I did that, I’d come to a complete stop. Now, that’s the other dilemma, I’m not a good kicker. Some of the best coaches say that’s an issue, others say in long distance triathlon, it’s not an issue. Swimming instruction seems to be full of discrepancies, and the trick is deciding which instruction to follow. Should I be kicking a lot if I’m training mainly for half and full tri’s?
klehner has a stroke rate of 0.75 - which translates to 1.5 seconds per cycle. he said he doesn’t know many with that high of a rate, but he IS in good company. Grant Hackett went 14:34 in a 1500 m with a rate of 1.53 seconds per cycle. You can see some other elite pool swimmers #s here: http://www.findingfreestyle.com/passive-technique-blog/strokeratesinelitepoolswimmers
Now, granted, that is in an all out 1500 meter swim, which is much more a VO2 max event than anything you are likely to be doing in a triathlon.
The biggest pit fall to counting stroke length is that people feel like they cannot ever deviate. When you are trying to adapt, you have to train in components quite often. So, sometimes you train DPS, and sometimes you train turnover. I use the following set in workouts with swimmers, and as a part of my own pre-race warmup. It is called “happy medium” and the idea is to practice extremes of DPS and turnover. Your optimal is in between, which you don’t do during the set, you can swim fast later:
16 x 25 on :15-20 rest (be totally recovered so you can focus)
ODD - ultra long stroke, try to do minus 3-5 strokes from your normal (so for you, 15-17 per length)
EVEN - ultra high turnover, spin as fast as you can but do NOT sprint. Try to purposely NOT pull water, while using your body to perpetuate your arms momentum
As useful as the long stroke part is, the high turnover part is maybe moreso. When you can get a sense of how to “get out of your own way” and let your arms maintain momentum, you will start to get some increased economy of motion.
Phelps can do that, and triathletes can’t, because Phelps can *kick *faster than 99% of triathletes. Please don’t use Phelps as an example!
I think Fla Jill pointed out a video of a women’s 400m free Olympic final that showed how the top swimmers had no glide in front whatsoever: hand goes in and starts to pull immediately.
Everyone here has been very helpful. You’ve given me a lot to work on and psyches me at the same time. Paddles, fist, one arms, DPS, fast turnover, etc. Anypants, the drill I hate the most is one arm breathing to my non-stroking side while the non stroking arm is at my side. Hate it, hate it, and have been practicing that because I hate it.
Sorry to buck the trend.
It’s all about strength.
While elite swimmers begin to need to worry about stroke rate, you clearly are turning in plenty of strokes per lap.
So for you, each stroke needs to make you go farther.
The only way that’s gonna happen is to:
a: Make sure your body isn’t slowing you down
b: Pull harder.
The answer for a:
Get that floaty thing that goes between your legs so you can swim without kicking.
If you are faster with it, then your legs are the problem, get them fixed.
If not;
Spend some time simply pushing off the wall and gliding with arms out to the front.
See if you can optimize body position (Often sucking in your gut/tightening core) by
increasing your glide distance.
The answer for b: (Which is likely to be the real answer for the OP)
Hit the weight room with lat pull downs and triceps extensions, sets of 3x10 reps high weight.
Swim 50y lengths while putting in the hand/arm smoothly, then crushing it in the stroke.
You’ll know you’re right when you can comfortably swim without much if any kicking, just pulling with the arms.
The answer for b: (Which is likely to be the real answer for the OP)
Hit the weight room with lat pull downs and triceps extensions, sets of 3x10 reps high weight.
Swim 50y lengths while putting in the hand/arm smoothly, then crushing it in the stroke.
You’ll know you’re right when you can comfortably swim without much if any kicking, just pulling with the arms.
cheers,
steve
Sigh. Emphasis added:
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1993 Aug;25(8):952-9.Dry-land resistance training for competitive swimming.
Tanaka H, Costill DL, Thomas R, Fink WJ, Widrick JJ.
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN 47306.Abstract
To determine the value of dry-land resistance training on front crawl swimming performance, two groups of 12 intercollegiate male swimmers were equated based upon preswimming performance, swim power values, and stroke specialties. Throughout the 14 wk of their competitive swimming season, both swim training group (SWIM, N = 12) and combined swim and resistance training group (COMBO, N = 12) swam together 6 d a week. In addition, the COMBO engaged in a 8-wk resistance training program 3 d a week. The resistance training was intended to simulate the muscle and swimming actions employed during front crawl swimming. Both COMBO and SWIM had significant (P < 0.05) but similar power gains as measured on the biokinetic swim bench and during a tethered swim over the 14-wk period. No change in distance per stroke was observed throughout the course of this investigation. No significant differences were found between the groups in any of the swim power and swimming performance tests. In this investigation, dry-land resistance training did not improve swimming performance despite the fact that the COMBO was able to increase the resistance used during strength training by 25-35%. The lack of a positive transfer between dry-land strength gains and swimming propulsive force may be due to the specificity of training.
I’m faster with the float. Can you elaborate on “fixing the legs”. I am not a good kicker, but already am leaning on my lungs to get my legs higher. Always try to feel the water line with my feet to verify the legs are “staying up there”. Is that what is meant by fix the legs? Is there more to look at?
BTW, I’m not sure if it matters, but I’m thick in the legs. In the “old days” I used to weightlift a lot and my legs were strong and naturally get larger. The long distance running has taken much of that away, but I’m probably still thicker in the legs than most. Is that an issue, even if I’m trying to keep them high. The other thing I have been trying to do is feel a little air on my butt to make sure it is up there. These are easy to check when I’m doing slow SPL drills.
