Swim Fitness (1)

Triathlon Forum
1

I’ve discovered that my HR is pretty high when swimming (160ish – not sure of my max in the water, but it’s ~195 on the bike). And that’s on a pace just below 2 mins/100. This is presumably why I really can’t go very far breathing anything other than on every stroke (to one side). It’s also soaking up a lot of energy that I’d like to spend on the bike/run.

I’m dedicating myself to a swim focus for the next 4-6 months. I know there’s an element of JFS to this, and I intend to do that. I use the Workouts In A Binder, going between 2000-3000 yards per session, 3x per week.

The goal… I want to bring my 1.2 mile swim of 40 mins down near 30 mins.

QUESTION 1 – Frequency and volume. More frequent shorter swims of 1500-2000 (I could do that maybe 4x, possibly 5x per week now and then), or fewer longer sessions of 3000-4000y 3x per week.

QUESTION 2: Types of workouts. Workouts In A Binder has different types of workouts… endurance, speed endurance, etc. Should I be mixing up the types of workouts day to day, or concentrating on one type over another, or cycling them for say a few weeks at a time?

2

I did exactly what you wanted to do 2 years ago. Didn’t worry too much about what I did or didn’t do, or what the distances were, I just got in the pool for at least a half hour, and NEVER took more than 1 day off in a row. In three months my times had dropped a ton, and I had been swimming in that 40 minute range for 2 years.

Now I’m stuck at 30 minutes…

3

As a near rock in the water, I’ll give you my uneducated but certainly anecdotal response: frequency is good, but I think yardage per workout is more critical. More time to work on technique, more time to do longer sets, etc. For me, in just over a month of structured, longer swim workouts my 1.2 mile at Vineman dropped from nearly 43 minutes last year to a 36:15 this year. Still not fantastic, but a pretty dramatic improvement in a relatively short time and I felt relaxed the whole time.

My workouts (3x per week) are in the 2800-3100 yard range. Since your goal is a longer swim, I would say stick with the longer sets (200s on up) for the most part, since what you want to build is holding the proper technique and speed for a longer haul, while getting more efficient as you do so. But certainly mix it up, as with the other two disciplines you’ll reach a plateau very quickly if you do the same thing all the time.

4

Looks like you are on the right track. If I were you I would spend 2x week doing about 1000-2000 of mostly drill work and slow smooth swimming. Then also spend about 2x week doing long stuff like 6x500 or 3X1000 with warm-up and cool-down. Then if you have time, do 1x week sprint work with lots of rest. If that does does not get your times down after 6 months, then nothing will :slight_smile:

Also remember, swimming is all about being smooth and streamlined. Don’t fight the water, work with it.

5

Looks like you are on the right track. If I were you I would spend 2x week doing about 1000-2000 of mostly drill work and slow smooth swimming. Then also spend about 2x week doing long stuff like 6x500 or 3X1000 with warm-up and cool-down. Then if you have time, do 1x week sprint work with lots of rest. If that does does not get your times down after 6 months, then nothing will :slight_smile:

Also remember, swimming is all about being smooth and streamlined. Don’t fight the water, work with it.

I love the concept, but I sure dread anything longer than 4 or 5 hundreds yards at once. Yuck!

Another thing I MUST learn to do, but just can’t seem to get at all… flip turns. Yeah, I know there aren’t any in triathlons, but there aren’t any walls either!

6

My friend who is a seriously fast swimmer came to visit me last week and we went for a swim together - she was horrified by my stroke but also because I didnt do flip turns … she laughed at me for quite some time and then decided i wasnt getting out of the pool without a lesson. Long story short … i had my lesson last week and 4 swims later it finally clicked …i can flip turn … its great - i can get into a rhythm now with my swim sets and im finding it much easier to swim longer intervals. Go practice those flip turns … you wont be disappointed.

7

Q1. It seems to me that if you have the time to do 2000 yards 4 days a week, you probably have the time to do 3-4000 yards that many days a week. What takes the longest in swimming is the preparation, not the actual swimming. The 20 minutes to drive to the pool. The 10 minutes in the locker room. The 5 minutes not wanting to jump in the cold water. Then there is the warmup, which is slow. But once you have all that done, adding 1000-1500 yards is only 20 minutes more (at most).

Q2. You aren’t putting in enough yardage for speedwork to have a significant positive effect. Essentially it would be a time waste. Besides, you are swimming 1800m in the race, who needs speed? Threshold sets are the way to go. Such as 8 or more 100’s with 20 seconds rest, holding fastest possible. Also, long easy swimming and drilling.

8

Q1. It seems to me that if you have the time to do 2000 yards 4 days a week, you probably have the time to do 3-4000 yards that many days a week. What takes the longest in swimming is the preparation, not the actual swimming. The 20 minutes to drive to the pool. The 10 minutes in the locker room. The 5 minutes not wanting to jump in the cold water. Then there is the warmup, which is slow. But once you have all that done, adding 1000-1500 yards is only 20 minutes more (at most).

Q2. You aren’t putting in enough yardage for speedwork to have a significant positive effect. Essentially it would be a time waste. Besides, you are swimming 1800m in the race, who needs speed? Threshold sets are the way to go. Such as 8 or more 100’s with 20 seconds rest, holding fastest possible. Also, long easy swimming and drilling.

A1. You are absolutely right. Assuming my delicate shoulders can handle that much action. As for the 20 mins at most for 1000-1500… speak for yourself!!!

A2. What you describe IS speedwork to me. :slight_smile:

9

If you’re worried about your shoulders, just build up gradually. But, Im a big fan of threshold sets in swimming. It prepares you for the high heart rate and sustained speed, but gives you a little rest here and there.

10

My friend who is a seriously fast swimmer came to visit me last week and we went for a swim together - she was horrified by my stroke but also because I didnt do flip turns … she laughed at me for quite some time and then decided i wasnt getting out of the pool without a lesson. Long story short … i had my lesson last week and 4 swims later it finally clicked …i can flip turn … its great - i can get into a rhythm now with my swim sets and im finding it much easier to swim longer intervals. Go practice those flip turns … you wont be disappointed.

I’ve been trying. I can do them with fins where I keep my hands at my side throughout and come out on my back, but something goes very wrong when I try to do them where I come out of it streamlined!

I can’t wait to be able to do them – looks cool, seems like it would establish a rhythym, and hide the fact that I am a complete fake in the water (I’m ashamed of open turns… the lifeguards are snickering, I just know it :-)).

11

it took me a few days of looking like a complete idiot … but it was worth it … lose the fins and just spend one whole swim doing flip turns every lap … i had no faith because i have tried it here and there for about a year but once i decided to focus on it for a few days it clicked!

12

To practice flip-turns, don’t swim an entire length. Practice them in the shallow end of the pool. But before you even start doing flip turns at the wall, just practice Summersaults in the middle of the pool (I know it will look weird, but put your pride aside or go to the pool when no one else is there).

Once you get the basic summersaults down (done a few dozen times at least), move one. From here again, don’t swim the entire length. Start in the shallow end of the pool about 5-10 yards out from the wall. Push off the bottom and swim fast towards the wall. Try not to take a breath inside 5 yards to the wall, this will help you keep your eyes on the wall. Do your flip turn with good momentum going in, what ever you do, don’t slow down. Follow your last arm storke down into a summersault. The key is to touch your chin to your chest then turning, you have to get that head down. Your body will automatically follow your head. Your hands should NOT be flailing by your side. Your hands should move on the inside your body up to your head. Imagine putting your hands palms down on the top of your head as if you are surrendering to the police. From there, your hands will shoot out into a streamline position when you push off the wall.

13

Sounds like you are fighting the water. Swimming is very much a technique vs. cardio exercise. Stroke drills to maximize the amount of water you are pushing, streamlining in the water, finding out where you are losing propulsion during your stroke all can bring your time down.
The amount of time in the water sure will help, but getting some lessons to correct stroke faults will help even more.

14

Sounds like you are fighting the water. Swimming is very much a technique vs. cardio exercise. Stroke drills to maximize the amount of water you are pushing, streamlining in the water, finding out where you are losing propulsion during your stroke all can bring your time down.
The amount of time in the water sure will help, but getting some lessons to correct stroke faults will help even more.
The water has slowly won that fight. My stroke is much better (I just started late last year), but of course still needs lots of work. Thankfully I have good body position, and know where my stroke faults lie. I’ve had top notch instruction and now just need to work on those faults. No changes to my stroke are going to knock 30 seconds off of my 100 pace (otherwise there would be times when I “get it right” and my speed would jump up for 15y or something). My limiter has to be a combo of stroke flaws and how hard I pull, which sounds like a fitness thing.

15

“My limiter has to be a combo of stroke flaws and how hard I pull”

The first part is probably mostly true, but pulling hard is not going to make you faster. Work with the water, not against it. Pulling harder without proper hand and body position will just cause your arm to slip through the water causing no forwad movement. My guess is that you probably also need to work on your body position. Most swimmers limiters are a combo of poor body position and stroke flaws, in that order of importance.

16

“My limiter has to be a combo of stroke flaws and how hard I pull”

The first part is probably mostly true, but pulling hard is not going to make you faster. Work with the water, not against it. Pulling harder without proper hand and body position will just cause your arm to slip through the water causing no forwad movement. My guess is that you probably also need to work on your body position. Most swimmers limiters are a combo of poor body position and stroke flaws, in that order of importance.

Pulling harder doesn’t make you faster? If that were true, then there would be no such thing as fitness in swimming. It would all come down to technique. My body position is good (where good if defined as level in the water), and it won’t get any better unless I am higher in the water. And that’s not something I get to choose :-).

No doubt about stroke flaws here, and I know what they are. But even when I skip breathing and concentrate on those flaws, it’s not like I suddenly speed up to a 1:20 pace. I wish! Then I could do nice easy low effort practices!!

17

Aztec, I just happen to be sitting down with a swim coach and we’re reading your post…here’s what he says:

Your HR is too high for a 2:00 100 yard swim. Which basically means your technique needs some help. If I saw you I’d guess that you “thrash” thru the water instead of “slip” thru it. Rather than swim 1000y sets of straight swimming, you’re better off breaking it down to say 10x50, 25y of stroke drill ie catch up freestyle, right arm only, left arm only, etc. and the second 25 is regular freestyle breathing on 3’s trying to swim as “pretty” as you can. Get :10 rest per 50. After 10 50’s that’s 500y grab a kickboard and kick 200y. If your HR is still high the biggest set of muscles that are making your HR high are your legs so you’ll need to work on getting a more stabilizing kick WITHOUT making you tired. Shorty fins like the Zoomers are a good idea. After that I’d go 3x100y building by 25’s (70%, 75%, 80%, etc.) to 85% max. If you can, try to negative split (your third 100 is fastest, second slower, and your first 100 is the slowest) the 100’s. Kick a 200 with fins (fly kick perhaps) or breaststroke kick, something just to get your legs back in the game. Then I’d have you finish with 6x25y freestyle counting your strokes and focusing on your technique. Each arm takes a stroke that starts as far “forward” as you can and then “finish” your stroke. Your goal is to become more efficient and this is measured by decreasing the number of strokes. You’re covering the same distance with fewer strokes, therefore less effort, which should in turn help to ratchet down your HR. If you want to get an idea of doing 50’s on an interval, swim at 70% a 50y swim and see how long it takes. The goal is to swim more efficiently (ie I can do 10 50’s on the 1:00 for example). In my experience 10 seconds of rest is more than sufficient if you’re a decently trained runner or cyclist. Happy swimming and good luck. - Coach Jay

Miguel in the 'No…El Tribato

PS - Coach Jay wants to know how old you are and adds that while he doesn’t cut kids who want to swim, he gently encourages them to explore other athetic avenues if they can’t cover 50y in a minute

18

Aztec, I just happen to be sitting down with a swim coach and we’re reading your post…here’s what he says:

Your HR is too high for a 2:00 100 yard swim. Which basically means your technique needs some help. If I saw you I’d guess that you “thrash” thru the water instead of “slip” thru it. Rather than swim 1000y sets of straight swimming, you’re better off breaking it down to say 10x50, 25y of stroke drill ie catch up freestyle, right arm only, left arm only, etc. and the second 25 is regular freestyle breathing on 3’s trying to swim as “pretty” as you can. Get :10 rest per 50. After 10 50’s that’s 500y grab a kickboard and kick 200y. If your HR is still high the biggest set of muscles that are making your HR high are your legs so you’ll need to work on getting a more stabilizing kick WITHOUT making you tired. Shorty fins like the Zoomers are a good idea. After that I’d go 3x100y building by 25’s (70%, 75%, 80%, etc.) to 85% max. If you can, try to negative split (your third 100 is fastest, second slower, and your first 100 is the slowest) the 100’s. Kick a 200 with fins (fly kick perhaps) or breaststroke kick, something just to get your legs back in the game. Then I’d have you finish with 6x25y freestyle counting your strokes and focusing on your technique. Each arm takes a stroke that starts as far “forward” as you can and then “finish” your stroke. Your goal is to become more efficient and this is measured by decreasing the number of strokes. You’re covering the same distance with fewer strokes, therefore less effort, which should in turn help to ratchet down your HR. If you want to get an idea of doing 50’s on an interval, swim at 70% a 50y swim and see how long it takes. The goal is to swim more efficiently (ie I can do 10 50’s on the 1:00 for example). In my experience 10 seconds of rest is more than sufficient if you’re a decently trained runner or cyclist. Happy swimming and good luck. - Coach Jay

Miguel in the 'No…El Tribato

PS - Coach Jay wants to know how old you are and adds that while he doesn’t cut kids who want to swim, he gently encourages them to explore other athetic avenues if they can’t cover 50y in a minute

I’m 40, and thankfully I can cover 50y in less than that. My race pace for Half-IM is 1:55/100y.

It’s definitely not my kick, as I barely kick at all when racing (wetsuit!).

I already do a large proportion of my swimming as c/u, L only, R only, and swim lots of different sets (rarely longer than a 300y, most are 100s).

And of course I need technique work (who doesn’t?). I’m workin’ on it. It’s just that my stroke flaws aren’t enough to be turning a 1:20 into 1:50s.

19

Swimming more frequently does help your technique, as long as you are practicing good form.

Eventually, swimming faster just requires you to swim harder and faster in practice. Pure speed work, like 5 x 100, with as much rest as time spent swimming, probably won’t help you much, but continually striving to do more repeats on the same interval and slowly decreasing your intervals will make you go faster.

Swimming long sets, of 2500 to 3500 yards, like 5 x 500 or 15 x 200, or even 30 x 100, with enough rest to keep your form together, but not so much rest that you are fully recovered, can be a really good way to improve fitness for Half IM distance swims. Rest times here can range from 10 - 15 seconds for 100s, to up to a minute for the 500s.