Swim coaches - CSS question

Triathlon Forum
1

Playing around with the CSS calculator on swimsmooth, neat tool. Had a bit of a question though.

Swimsmooth basically says that the CSS should be a pace you can hold for a set of 18x100 @ 10s rest, with some other example sets in there. If I put in my last times from my 200 free and 400 free, I get a CSS of 1:19 per 100, which means that I should be able to hold 1:19’s on a set of 12 to 18 x 100 on 1:30. However, if I know that I can hold say 1:15’s for a set of 12 x 100 on 1:30, does that mean I underperformed in my last 400? I haven’t tried dropping the interval to 1:25’s yet, that’ll be today.

My feeling is that I underperformed in my 400, but just wondering if I’m interpreting the calculator correctly.

2

Playing around with the CSS calculator on swimsmooth, neat tool. Had a bit of a question though.

Swimsmooth basically says that the CSS should be a pace you can hold for a set of 18x100 @ 10s rest, with some other example sets in there. If I put in my last times from my 200 free and 400 free, I get a CSS of 1:19 per 100, which means that I should be able to hold 1:19’s on a set of 12 to 18 x 100 on 1:30. However, if I know that I can hold say 1:15’s for a set of 12 x 100 on 1:30, does that mean I underperformed in my last 400? I haven’t tried dropping the interval to 1:25’s yet, that’ll be today.

My feeling is that I underperformed in my 400, but just wondering if I’m interpreting the calculator correctly.

I do not know much about this CSS calculator (it had my CSS pace about :05 slow) but I think you left about 5-7 seconds on the table from what I would have thought (and I did win the Free Costco Sampler in your 200m so I have a track record). So if you are interpreting about ~:05 slow on your 400m from the calculator I would say you are doing it right.

12x100 on 1:25 should be a good one for you. I predict pain on the last 3 or so.

3

I’m unfamiliar with anything published on the issue of how many 100s a person could hold at critical pace with ten seconds rest.

We do critical pace with our swimmers and there are definitely people who are on the high end or low and and it also depends on the stage of fitness.

So, some folks consistently swim faster than their critical pace, others do the opposite, there’s not much to do about it one way or another. It’s an estimate, some people are on the other side.

4

12x100 on 1:25 should be a good one for you. I predict pain on the last 3 or so.

you nailed it again! another costco sample for you!

5

I am playing around with this calculator.
It seems to work well when I put in my swim PRs (from when I was an age group swimmer).
It works poorly for my current situation.

I think the model assumes that: my swim fitness, my overall fitness and my durability are all the same. (This is a reasonable assumption for an age group swimmers. It is not a reasonable assumption for a masters triathlete).

Like you - I could hold a much faster time for 18 x 100s than this calculator predicts. The calculator is assuming that I am a slow sprinter, who is in terrible shape. (This is based on the times that I enter). Yet this is not the case!! I am not a sprinter and I am in pretty good shape. I am just not doing lots of swimming (and no hard swim training).

6

This calculator says a 1:59/4:06 swimmer should be able to :

  1. Swim 18 x 100 in 1:03 on 1:15-
    True - not even difficult
  2. Swim 10 x 200 in 2:06 on 2:30-
    False (maybe tapered and shaved but not normally)
  3. Swim 5 x 400s in 4:12 on 4:55-
    No- not in this world.

The paragraph “should I never swim above threshold” from swimsmooth shows that the author believes “anaerobic” and above “lactic threshold” are the same thing. I think that this is not the case.
And probably explains what is most wrong.

7

This calculator says a 1:59/4:06 swimmer should be able to :

  1. Swim 18 x 100 in 1:03 on 1:15-
    True - not even difficult
  2. Swim 10 x 200 in 2:06 on 2:30-
    False (maybe tapered and shaved but not normally)
  3. Swim 5 x 400s in 4:12 on 4:55-
    No- not in this world.

The paragraph “should I never swim above threshold” from swimsmooth shows that the author believes “anaerobic” and above “lactic threshold” are the same thing. I think that this is not the case.
And probably explains what is most wrong.

Yeah, that seems off. When I was in college, I was a 1:56 mid for my 200 free, and a 4:13 for my 400. Don’t think I could have swum 5 in a row at a second faster than my PB…

8

backing up what kevin said… there’s a lot of individual genetic variety and history that can play into 18x100 on 10 rest. I could have three athletes do it… on dead at 9, another just barely making it and (say it were me in shape) i’d make it to 40 or 50. Has to do largely with D’ maximum capacity as well as D’ regenerative capacity. Not sure SS is set up to address those aspects.

9

This calculator says a 1:59/4:06 swimmer should be able to :

  1. Swim 18 x 100 in 1:03 on 1:15-
    True - not even difficult
  2. Swim 10 x 200 in 2:06 on 2:30-
    False (maybe tapered and shaved but not normally)
  3. Swim 5 x 400s in 4:12 on 4:55-
    No- not in this world.

The paragraph “should I never swim above threshold” from swimsmooth shows that the author believes “anaerobic” and above “lactic threshold” are the same thing. I think that this is not the case.
And probably explains what is most wrong.

Yeah, that seems off. When I was in college, I was a 1:56 mid for my 200 free, and a 4:13 for my 400. Don’t think I could have swum 5 in a row at a second faster than my PB…

What about 5 in ~4:35 on 5:15, which is what the calculator throws out for your 1:56/4:13

10

I realized that I would have had to recalculate after I posted and didn’t have time to go back. That’s a definite “maybe”, I don’t recall a lot of our off times from practices, except for the truly memorable ones. I don’t think we ever did a set quite that tough, but then I’d be comparing shaved /. tapered times to in-season workouts…

11

I don’t think the calculator is there to determine what you ‘can’ do or predict what you ‘could’ do. The idea iirc is to get a CSS pace . That is a pace to use to build stamina and base…it should feel easy / steady and not out of breath hard.

With lots of Css sets you become more efficient. You are then able to hold a faster pace for a longer time…then the css pace will go up.

I take it to mean like zone 2 running pace.

12

CSS is not zone 2 like running…It’s an approximation of your lactate threshold speed Read more: http://swimsmooth.com/training#ixzz3LOGohJrP Others will call it T-pace, Threshold. You are partly right and wrong. Remember how hard lactate threshold test is…swim like this effort is not like zone 2 running.

you are correct though it does build stamina and endurance

TTH

I don’t think the calculator is there to determine what you ‘can’ do or predict what you ‘could’ do. The idea iirc is to get a CSS pace . That is a pace to use to build stamina and base…it should feel easy / steady and not out of breath hard.

With lots of Css sets you become more efficient. You are then able to hold a faster pace for a longer time…then the css pace will go up.

I take it to mean like zone 2 running pace.

13

backing up what kevin said… there’s a lot of individual genetic variety and history that can play into 18x100 on 10 rest. I could have three athletes do it… on dead at 9, another just barely making it and (say it were me in shape) i’d make it to 40 or 50. Has to do largely with D’ maximum capacity as well as D’ regenerative capacity. Not sure SS is set up to address those aspects.

I think the idea is that the faster your 400 is relative to your 200, then the faster your CSS is going to be. A drop dead sprinter will be doing these on a slower off time than a miler. Theoretically, if you have an accurate CSS then all 3 swimmers in your example should be able to do more or less the same number of repeats at their CSS with the same rest interval, assuming all have sufficient training.

14

Theoretically, if you have an accurate CSS then all 3 swimmers in your example should be able to do more or less the same number of repeats at their CSS with the same rest interval, assuming all have sufficient training.

You said theoretically, more or less and assuming all in the same sentence and given all three of those caveats you pretty much have it right. It’s all more or less the same but there is substantial variation in people’s abilities to maintain critical pace. I’ve got five years of data on it. We still do it, it’s well worth it, it’s better than rectal extraction of interval times for a squad but there is some variation. And even given the caveats, it is still an excellent way to track aerobic development, isolating out one’s changes in purely aerobic pace without having to swim a 2,000 time trial.

Critical power theory assumes that in testing your D’ is always the same, if you are doing the test in one day that probably isn’t true. It also assumes that in testing you completely deplete D’, this would happen if you hit VO2max. Almost no one is hitting VO2max in a 200 swim, though in 400 they are if they are familiar with the event and truly empty the tank.

But the biggest problem comes in that critical power theory assumes two sources of energy one of which is aerobic and that aerobic energy production capacity is constant across any any amount of time. That’s a decent assumption, but it isn’t perfect.

So you will always find one person or another can do more reps at critical pace than the person next to them.

15

I also threw in an “if” and a “should” for good measure :slight_smile:
.

16

Ha! :slight_smile: On similar matters i do the same thing. :wink:

Mr Joubert has got this one. :slight_smile:

17

CSS, as Swimsmooth, defines it is lactic threshold. This is the point at which lactic acid starts to “accumulate rapidly.” Swimsmooth’s premise is that this is the speed at which one should do most of their training.

Swimsmooth seems to confuse CSS with other limiting factors such as aerobic threshold and durability. When I use the calculator with times that real swimmers can do, it recommends a pace that is achievable for sets of 100s, and near impossible for a sets of 400s or 600s.

The problem with the calculator and the training paces it advocates, is that lactic threshold is not the only limiting factor for swimmers.
This is a glaring, and foolish oversight and it causes me to question the whole premise.

There were some questions about these CSS training paces and heart rate zones. The CSS calculator advocates that training should be in Zone 3 for 50- 100s with short rest, zone 5 for all other distances.

Take my PRs (LCM)
200 - 1:59 (did no race distance at big meets - let’s use 1:57)
400- 4:06
18 x 100s in 1:05 on 1:15- not hard set
10 x 200s in 2:10 on 2:30
5 x 400s in 4:20 on 5:00
3 x 600s in 6:30 on 7:30- very, very hard indeed. Would need to be tapered and shaved.

Using JasoninHalifax 1:56/4:13
100s - 1:10 - not hard
600s - 7:00 - very hard

Me know 2:19/5:10 (not training much)
100s- 1:26- extremely easy
600s - hardish

My philosophy of training- tax all thresholds as much as you can (time and enthusiasm condidered)- and still recover well.

This Swimsmooth philosophy seems to be “tax your aerobic threshold- more than you can recover from” but don’t build up lactic acid or wear yourself out too much.
I guess I think this is mostly wrong.

18

I really wish you had used “tandem” somewhere in that.

19

You’ve put your finger right on how using critical paces for interval setting works in practice.

Though to be clear, using meet times to set workout intervals will give you very, very aggressive estimates of critical pace.

But you do point out how it tends to work in real life. If you walk on deck with a group of 16 or so swimmers spread across all abilities and have fresh critical paces from last week, it is something like this. Critical pace 50s 10 seconds rest, people can do many, many of them.

100s on ten seconds rest at critical pace, folks can do a good number of them, 18 of them? Some but no means all would pull it off, a good chunk of swimmers would make the inervals but not the paces.

on up to 400s? some people won’t even make one.

A 20 minute swim? which if all the assumptions of the critical power model were correct, everyone should be able to do? You might get one person who would pull it off. I’ve compared critical paces to 3,000 and one hour postal swims on a handful of occasions for our team, I think only one person has ever held critical pace for 3,000.

If you go through a period of working critical pace swimming hard in your practices, in 6 or so weeks you will see a lot more of the people be able to hit critical pace.

In my estimation, true critical pace is 2 to 4 seconds slower than the critical paces we get from our 100, 200, 500 testing. After having done it for years now, we just add or subtract the seconds for people when they do the set. So we just say “Lane 2, 20 x 50 on 1:00, 1 second faster than critical pace” Or lane 4 4 x 400 (:40) within 3 secs / 100 of critical pace. The critical pace chart with everyone’s recent times is hanging on the wall.

20

Maybe it is best to forget about the 200s, 400s, 600s at CSS pace?
(Unless your primary goal is to PR in 1500m or further).

It does seem that doing sets of 50s and 100s, with short rest at a "comfortably hard " speed would be very good training for triathletes, masters swimmers, and age group swimmers.

This was a very common type of swim training.

Oddly, I do not think I have ever seen one do this kind of training with running or cycling. Yet I do feel that this is were my biggest weakness lies.

Assume one could run 5:15 mile and a 2:22 800.
Would there be a point to running:
18 x 400s in 1:28 (with 10s rest)?

If this approach works for swimming, why not running?