Getting back to more frequency in the pool and decided to do a marker set. After a good warmup I did 500 scy (from a push) in 7:29. Swam 300 easy, then did 100 all-out in 1:15.
Got me thinking - how do these two numbers compare, and what (if anything) can I read into them? Is there a McMillan-type chart for swimming?
I’d think the 500 is “weak” relative to the 100. My sharpest swimming was in the build up to 2014 Nationals. From memory my fastest times were 6:55 and 1:09.
Safe to assume that the 500 is a better representation of tri-swim fitness? Also safe to assume the 500 varies more based on training volume?
I’d be hard pressed to go much under 1:05 (scy) for an all-out 100, and I’d expect to go 6:15 or so for a 500 all out. I’m more endurance based.
I think it would be very individualized, depending on if you’re more of a fast or slow-twitch athlete, as well as depending on how much yardage you’re putting in. When I started swimming more, I gained a small amount of top end speed, but the gap between top end speed and threshold effort pace decreased a fair bit.
The 500 would definitely be a better indicator of tri fitness, and it would definitely change significantly with increased volume, assuming your technique is decent (although yardage helps with that too!).
Getting back to more frequency in the pool and decided to do a marker set. After a good warmup I did 500 scy (from a push) in 7:29. Swam 300 easy, then did 100 all-out in 1:15.
Got me thinking - how do these two numbers compare, and what (if anything) can I read into them? Is there a McMillan-type chart for swimming?
I’d think the 500 is “weak” relative to the 100. My sharpest swimming was in the build up to 2014 Nationals. From memory my fastest times were 6:55 and 1:09.
Safe to assume that the 500 is a better representation of tri-swim fitness? Also safe to assume the 500 varies more based on training volume?
yes you can do McMillan-esque analysis of swim paces. Keep in mind that relative to swimming a run of 1:15 & a run of 7:29 don’t compare to the types of runs people usually use mcMillan for. I other words those swims are so short that physiologically there are a lot of changes in fitness & swim technique as the durations get out to 15, 30 or 60minutes.
plug in 2 times here, you’ll get a decay rate and can also play with figures to predict other distances, and learn if you are sprint leaning or endurance leaning (and thus train the other side to improve times all around)
I have a spreadsheet I use based on the above formula (which is based on Peter Reigel’s formula) that helps me suggest training paces for my athletes, as well as calculate potential speed improvements depending on what their strength is (sprint or endurance).
Getting back to more frequency in the pool and decided to do a marker set. After a good warm-up I did 500 scy (from a push) in 7:29. Swam 300 easy, then did 100 all-out in 1:15.
Got me thinking - how do these two numbers compare, and what (if anything) can I read into them? Is there a McMillan-type chart for swimming?
I’d think the 500 is “weak” relative to the 100. My sharpest swimming was in the build up to 2014 Nationals. From memory my fastest times were 6:55 and 1:09.
Safe to assume that the 500 is a better representation of tri-swim fitness? Also safe to assume the 500 varies more based on training volume?
Ya, your 7:29 is weak compared to your 1:15. Using your best 100 yd of 1:09, if you were in equally good shape for the 500, you should be able go 6:10-15-ish. I’m assuming both times are from a push in practice. In a meet, rested and going off the blocks, you could prob go 1:05-6 and 6:00-05 if you really got your swim in shape.
More like 6:35 to 40.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
Well, I am simply going off of MY experience, as there was a time when my best time for the 100 was 1:05 off the blocks in a meet, but my best 500 was 6:00, so only a 7 sec per 100 diff.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
10 seconds seems like way too much. Maybe if you’re naturally a sprinter. That would put me at a :51-52 and I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance I could do that in the 100.
My swimming shape varies whether I doing like 30k a month or 10k a month (ha ha). Anyway after 15 years off n on:
Outta shape: 705 & 70ish off the wall. In better shape: 635 - 217 200 & 60 flat off the blocks. Almost back to my amazing jv times as a 16 yr old (30 yrs ago).
I’ve got the US Age Group Motivational Times in front of me. 17-18 Boys Long Course AAAA times are 53:59 for the 100, 4:10.29 for the 400. Applying the 10s rule of thumb, that 100 works out to a predicted 4:14.36 , pretty darned close. The fade in the AAAA standard is 9s per 100.
For the B motivational times, the fade is larger. The motivational times are 1:11.49 and 5:33.69, which works out to a 12s per 100 fade. The faster you are, the less the fade will be, i.e. a 15% decline is a greater number of seconds at 1:11 pace than at 0:53 pace.
I also looked up the canadian 45-49 mens AG records for SCM. They are 53.73 and 4:11.35, which works out to that same 9 s per 100 fade as the AAAA times.
also, you and the OP are talking yards, it’s an even bigger step up (% wise and in actual distance) from the 100y to the 500y than it is from the 100m to the 400m.
conclusion - 10s per 100 is a fairly average fade from the 100 to the 500, and for the OP might even be on the aggressive side. I’d just say that you and Eric fall into the distance swimmer camp…
I would imagine that (specifically for triathletes) the quality (and speed) of the turns and streamline/transition off the walls (especially for 25yd/25m pools) might play a role, especially when fatigued.
More like 6:35 to 40.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
Well, I am simply going off of MY experience, as there was a time when my best time for the 100 was 1:05 off the blocks in a meet, but my best 500 was 6:00, so only a 7 sec per 100 diff.
When I said it was my experience, I wasn’t actually talking about my own times, just what I’ve seen a lot of guys I swim with / against do over the years, talking about race performances with coaches, etc. See my other reply to Trexlera, you’re a distance guy, not a sprinter.
Incidentally, it just so happens that my own PB’s (lifetime and masters) follow that 10s per 100 trend, but that kinda makes sense considering my best freestyle event in college was the 200.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
10 seconds seems like way too much. Maybe if you’re naturally a sprinter. That would put me at a :51-52 and I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance I could do that in the 100.
IIRC, we’re about the same speed. Converted from SCM to SCY, my masters PB’s are 5:10 for the 500 and 51.85 for the 100.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
10 seconds seems like way too much. Maybe if you’re naturally a sprinter. That would put me at a :51-52 and I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance I could do that in the 100.
IIRC, we’re about the same speed. Converted from SCM to SCY, my masters PB’s are 5:10 for the 500 and 51.85 for the 100.
FWIW, AdventureBear posted a formula above that calculates a decay.
Your calculated decay is 1.11. If I take the USMS National qualifying times, m35-39 it’s about the same
Women seem to have a lower decay, closer to 1.09.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
10 seconds seems like way too much. Maybe if you’re naturally a sprinter. That would put me at a :51-52 and I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance I could do that in the 100.
My drop from 100scy to 500scy was about 12 seconds at my fastest (and I was more of a sprinter than a distance swimmer): 51.x to 5:17.x.
More like 6:35 to 40.
Figure on a 10s per 100 fade from the 100 to the 400/500. That’s my experience, and pretty much in line with FINA points tables.
Well, I am simply going off of MY experience, as there was a time when my best time for the 100 was 1:05 off the blocks in a meet, but my best 500 was 6:00, so only a 7 sec per 100 diff.
When I said it was my experience, I wasn’t actually talking about my own times, just what I’ve seen a lot of guys I swim with / against do over the years, talking about race performances with coaches, etc. See my other reply to Trexlera, you’re a distance guy, not a sprinter.
Incidentally, it just so happens that my own PB’s (lifetime and masters) follow that 10s per 100 trend, but that kinda makes sense considering my best freestyle event in college was the 200.
I would hypothesize (and, based on my own experience) that the gap for triathletes will be much larger than pure swimmers since our yardage is so much less. And training for the 500 requires that you put in that yardage while you can wing the 100 without training much.
For example, I was a D1 distance swimmer and my gap at my peak between my 100 free and my 500 pace was only 8 seconds. Now, while training for tris 3x per week and less than 15k yards/week, my gap is more like 14 seconds (49 vs 1:03 at meet last spring). This is the difference between 15k per week and 80k per week training.
I would hypothesize (and, based on my own experience) that the gap for triathletes will be much larger than pure swimmers since our yardage is so much less. And training for the 500 requires that you put in that yardage while you can wing the 100 without training much.
For example, I was a D1 distance swimmer and my gap at my peak between my 100 free and my 500 pace was only 8 seconds. Now, while training for tris 3x per week and less than 15k yards/week, my gap is more like 14 seconds (49 vs 1:03 at meet last spring). This is the difference between 15k per week and 80k per week training.
Yeah, that’s probably right. If you were a D-guy, then your 8s falloff from the 100 to the 500 is pretty much in line with what I was saying. and you’re right, you can wing it in the 50 and the 100. The 200 and up, not so much…
Um, you’re 100 free time is what I’ve been striving for this past year btw (geez, you probably make it look easy coming from a D1 background). Anyway, my gap is real whack, as the further I go in distance, the way slower I am pace-wise (its like a 20 second gap). My last meet was 50.56 for the 100 free, and a week later in another meet, my 500 was 5:50, 1:10/100yd pace (I was lucky to even do that as I was completely cashed at the halfway wall and literally felt like I’d have to start taking a break at the walls lol).