I didn’t see anything like this under the search and it seems ST has some of the better insight with super shoes. Thank you for any help.
I’m ramping up for the Gravel Worlds double in August with a 50k run on Nebraska gravel Friday. 150 mile gravel ride Saturday. I have done the ride before, but this is the first time they have hosted a run before. I’m curious if the typical road style shoe is the best call here given that it’s almost entirely on rolling gravel roads. I have a pair of Next% that have mostly been sitting in the closet since IMWI 2019 which may be the best option since I already own them and they have about 100 miles on them already. I don’t know if it’s the heigh stack height, upper construction or what, but I don’t think they would be great on loose surfaces.
Does anybody here has experience with these types of shoes on unpaved surfaces? I would say my primary goals are to be as fresh as (reasonably) possible the next day and to pick up a little speed over my normal rotation of Altra shoes. Should I be looking at trail type shoes instead? The Hoka Tecton X looks like another decent option. Hokas also work for my feet and my local shoe shop carries them so I’m not on the hook if sizing isn’t right. What’s been your experience?
I raced my next %’s on some gravel-ish run courses over two seasons. Maybe a total of 15 miles or so (sprints/Olympics). The sole now has a very large hole in it. I wouldn’t be shocked it your shoes slowly disintegrated throughout your run. But YMMV. I tend to run on the outsides of my feet, so there’s a lot more pressure in that area which may have contributed to the hole. But idk. I’m planning on not using my carbon shoes on unpacked surfaces anymore unless it’s an “A†race.
My only 1:1 as a much shorter distance and much lower volume runner is a local 1mi park loop that is 1/2 paved and half gravel/sand/pack through the woods. I wear my Endorphin Speeds for that run and notice nothing of concern. They don’t feel like they “pop” like they do on pavement when the surface is a more sandy/grit that is looser versus hard pack. That’s probably not helpful…but I say…you live once. Wear em.
I just did the Gravel Nationals in Fayetteville and the course was very chunky and rocky. I opted for the Saucony Endorphin Speed as it has the nylon plate to give some pop and stability and I felt the carbon plates might be too harsh. It was a perfect choice! I’d surely go with them as they have far more predictable rebound and stability than VF.
It really depends on the surface. Crushed limestone, smooth ‘grade’ 1 or 2 you’re best bet is super shoes. Honestly it’s probably the fastest on even the roughest gravel as well, but people tend to go lower stack on rough gravel and trails because it’s very easy to turn an ankle on high stack, low width shoes like the next%.
But YMMV. I tend to run on the outsides of my feet, so there’s a lot more pressure in that area which may have contributed to the hole.
I also supinate while running so that’s very helpful feedback. I should have mentioned that it’s my only run event this year and I’m probably a little more willing to burn through a pair of shoes. Thank you.
My N=1: I recently did a short trail race in my Vaporfly’s and it was definitely the wrong shoe choice. The course had some loose sand/gravel and a decent amount of grass trails, and they felt very unstable due to the narrow outsole. It also felt like the pop I feel on the road/track was muted at best and non-existent on the grass. Probably would feel very different on hard packed gravel. I agree with others that the Endorphin Speed is a better option.
There was a thread not that long ago about this with some good recommendations for fast trail shoes.
I just did the Gravel Nationals in Fayetteville and the course was very chunky and rocky. I opted for the Saucony Endorphin Speed as it has the nylon plate to give some pop and stability and I felt the carbon plates might be too harsh. It was a perfect choice! I’d surely go with them as they have far more predictable rebound and stability than VF.
I was so close to going to that and I hope it was a good time! The Endorphin speed wasn’t on my radar. That’s a lot of exposed foam on the bottom. They held up pretty well for you?
It really depends on the surface. Crushed limestone, smooth ‘grade’ 1 or 2 you’re best bet is super shoes. Honestly it’s probably the fastest on even the roughest gravel as well, but people tend to go lower stack on rough gravel and trails because it’s very easy to turn an ankle on high stack, low width shoes like the next%.
I’m with you on the instability. No way I would ever try these on trails. Even on the portion of IMWI that goes on the nearby football field the Next% felt a little weird. Do you have experience with that type of shoe on gravel? I wasn’t really sure from your reply.
I just did the Gravel Nationals in Fayetteville and the course was very chunky and rocky. I opted for the Saucony Endorphin Speed as it has the nylon plate to give some pop and stability and I felt the carbon plates might be too harsh. It was a perfect choice! I’d surely go with them as they have far more predictable rebound and stability than VF.
I was so close to going to that and I hope it was a good time! The Endorphin speed wasn’t on my radar. That’s a lot of exposed foam on the bottom. They held up pretty well for you?
You missed a great race! It was really, really amazing and “gnarly” as I’m new to gravel. Very chunky and a complete ball. The run was also amazing and the shoes were absolutely perfect! They still look new after that race and the foam is perfect. As there was a LOT of loose rock and roots, every stride reinforced my choice of shoe. These things are amazing on gravel.
My N=1: I recently did a short trail race in my Vaporfly’s and it was definitely the wrong shoe choice. The course had some loose sand/gravel and a decent amount of grass trails, and they felt very unstable due to the narrow outsole. It also felt like the pop I feel on the road/track was muted at best and non-existent on the grass. Probably would feel very different on hard packed gravel. I agree with others that the Endorphin Speed is a better option.
There was a thread not that long ago about this with some good recommendations for fast trail shoes.
ETA: found it.
Thank you for that and the link. I had looked at that thread and the super shoe longevity thread. I definitely think gravel roads are going to be a bit different than trail running. I’m open to ideas though. Another Endorphin Speed recommendation on chunky gravel surprises me. These things have a lot of exposed foam on the bottom.
It really depends on the surface. Crushed limestone, smooth ‘grade’ 1 or 2 you’re best bet is super shoes. Honestly it’s probably the fastest on even the roughest gravel as well, but people tend to go lower stack on rough gravel and trails because it’s very easy to turn an ankle on high stack, low width shoes like the next%.
I’m with you on the instability. No way I would ever try these on trails. Even on the portion of IMWI that goes on the nearby football field the Next% felt a little weird. Do you have experience with that type of shoe on gravel? I wasn’t really sure from your reply.
I’ve used them on all sorts of surfaces, and even on the roughest of gravel they are still the IMO fastest, just not stable at all. The only surface I’ve anecdotally felt them to be slower is on softer dirt trails. Shoes just kinda sink into the softer dirt and the bounce is non-existent.
If you know where wear spots will be you can always add some shoe goo to those areas so that they are a bit more protected. I have been doing that with any wear on my 4% through Next% to keep the foam from wearing down. Many miles later it still works!
and here is my gripe with super shoes. people become too dependent on them that they start using them as a crutch for all races! XC nationals here how bad was this crutch? I knew people easily doing 36min 10k in super shoes on road, but crying they did 42 min in the grassy/gopher hole filled 10k course. (yes im that dork that sits here looking at people’s strava all day). The super shoes are designed to work with a hard, stable surface. Kind of akin to taking your tri bike on a gravel course… sure you can do it, but wont be the result you are looking for.
It really depends on the surface. Crushed limestone, smooth ‘grade’ 1 or 2 you’re best bet is super shoes. Honestly it’s probably the fastest on even the roughest gravel as well, but people tend to go lower stack on rough gravel and trails because it’s very easy to turn an ankle on high stack, low width shoes like the next%.
I’m with you on the instability. No way I would ever try these on trails. Even on the portion of IMWI that goes on the nearby football field the Next% felt a little weird. Do you have experience with that type of shoe on gravel? I wasn’t really sure from your reply.
I’ve used them on all sorts of surfaces, and even on the roughest of gravel they are still the IMO fastest, just not stable at all. The only surface I’ve anecdotally felt them to be slower is on softer dirt trails. Shoes just kinda sink into the softer dirt and the bounce is non-existent.
That’s where I start wondering about things I don’t have expertise in. To me, the foam is primarily responsible for the energy return. That being said, the foam is acting on the outsole, not the ground (with the outsole acting on the ground), right? Thus I believe the outsole to be more important in loose surfaces than on paved surfaces. The shoes with so much exposed foam or lots of separations between the outsole pieces seem to need something solid to be landing on and pushing off from. So maybe a solid outsole helps the foam do its job on loose surfaces? Maybe the surfaces aren’t loose enough for it to actually matter.
I’m a research analyst, not any sort of engineer though. So it could be crazy talk.
And my primary goal is reduce soreness the day after. I have done enough long distance triathlon to know the ‘super shoes’ make a difference for me the next day.
It really depends on the surface. Crushed limestone, smooth ‘grade’ 1 or 2 you’re best bet is super shoes. Honestly it’s probably the fastest on even the roughest gravel as well, but people tend to go lower stack on rough gravel and trails because it’s very easy to turn an ankle on high stack, low width shoes like the next%.
I’m with you on the instability. No way I would ever try these on trails. Even on the portion of IMWI that goes on the nearby football field the Next% felt a little weird. Do you have experience with that type of shoe on gravel? I wasn’t really sure from your reply.
I’ve used them on all sorts of surfaces, and even on the roughest of gravel they are still the IMO fastest, just not stable at all. The only surface I’ve anecdotally felt them to be slower is on softer dirt trails. Shoes just kinda sink into the softer dirt and the bounce is non-existent.
That’s where I start wondering about things I don’t have expertise in. To me, the foam is primarily responsible for the energy return. That being said, the foam is acting on the outsole, not the ground (with the outsole acting on the ground), right? Thus I believe the outsole to be more important in loose surfaces than on paved surfaces. The shoes with so much exposed foam or lots of separations between the outsole pieces seem to need something solid to be landing on and pushing off from. So maybe a solid outsole helps the foam do its job on loose surfaces? Maybe the surfaces aren’t loose enough for it to actually matter.
I’m a research analyst, not any sort of engineer though. So it could be crazy talk.
And my primary goal is reduce soreness the day after. I have done enough long distance triathlon to know the ‘super shoes’ make a difference for me the next day.
The outsole on non-trail shoes is really just for durability. You could make a case that 5k/10k shoes would be faster with no outsole at all, if they would last the race.
The real place where an outsole design is important is on slippery surfaces. Slippery surfaces (like finely crushed limestone) have a primary loss in slipping of the foot, so mechanical contact would be best (i.e. spikes), but spikes would produce a point load on soft foam unless the outsole was made very stiff. Loose surfaces like rocky gravel and mud have such a deleterious effect on running form that it’s hard to isolate the effect of supershoes. BUT if you were to put a solid plate outsole on supershoes to help the foam on rocky surfaces the shoe would just slide off of any non-level rocks.
Yeah, most triathlons here in Boulder have at least some, if not most of their runs on dirt roads. I raced the Colorado Triathlon last week in alpha flys, and I’ve done several other races on dirt in those or the vapor fly. Even with their lack of traction, they are the better choice on these roads but they would be significantly improved with better treads. I definitely feel my feet slipping when I push out the back and it’s frustrating.
Yeah, most triathlons here in Boulder have at least some, if not most of their runs on dirt roads. I raced the Colorado Triathlon last week in alpha flys, and I’ve done several other races on dirt in those or the vapor fly. Even with their lack of traction, they are the better choice on these roads but they would be significantly improved with better treads. I definitely feel my feet slipping when I push out the back and it’s frustrating.
Good feedback, thank you. I have done a handful of Xterras and every one has definitely required treaded outsole to even keep upright. Your experience with dirt roads is probably bit more similar to midwest gravel.
