I have an IM distance event coming up this summer. It’s an interesting run course because just over 10 miles of it (5m per lap) is off road. The surface is chalk grassland, so is well draining (but can get slippery if wet), uneven in parts and can be quite stony along the paths.
In the past I’ve run round it quite happily in summer with regular trainers, but I don’t know if something like an Alphafly / Endorphins / etc would handle that?
I’m not the best runner - I’m hoping for just under 4hrs is all goes well, so need all the help I can get.
I have run XC races (grass, sand, gravel) in Nike 4% with pretty good success.
If you are looking for maximum traction, I have raced trail half marathons in Adidas Takumi Sen shoes (the versions 1-7) which have a much more grippy bottom. I raced with the Takumi Sen 7 at Long Distance Du Nationals with plenty of confidence over the sections of rocky jeep track.
The new version (Takumi Sen 8) has a different bottom but it is Continental tire rubber so it may be pretty decent. Some of the InoV8 and Salomon trail shoes are pretty light and fast if things get a bit more technical.
Note that the Takumi Sen shoes are not good if you are a heel striker.
I have run XC races (grass, sand, gravel) in Nike 4% with pretty good success.
If you are looking for maximum traction, I have raced trail half marathons in Adidas Takumi Sen shoes (the versions 1-7) which have a much more grippy bottom. I raced with the Takumi Sen 7 at Long Distance Du Nationals with plenty of confidence over the sections of rocky jeep track.
The new version (Takumi Sen 8) has a different bottom but it is Continental tire rubber so it may be pretty decent. Some of the InoV8 and Salomon trail shoes are pretty light and fast if things get a bit more technical.
Note that the Takumi Sen shoes are not good if you are a heel striker.
Not a real xc race then . needs mud, water crossings, hay bale jumps
This is something I am curious about too. I am doing the Saguaro Half Marathon next month and it is mixed terrain as well (maybe 4 miles trail). I have the Endorphin Speeds, and I think I was going to chance it to just have a data point going forward (this is definitely not an A race).
Most trail running here (Hong Kong) winds up being a mix of different surfaces, including a fair amount of pavement. My overall approach has been that there is no perfect shoe, but that in general I like road shoes on trails more than I like trail shoes on roads. Since I tend to like more cushioned shoes, with your route I’d probably go with something like glycerins or cliftons, which sounds like a lot more shoe than you’re thinking about. I’ve done a lot of trail miles with the glycerins. I also avoid something where the bottom really has no tread at all, so that alphafly heel would worry me.
More than half of the race is on fast pavement. I’m more interested in the robustness and stability of a shoe like the alphafly on uneven grass terrain.
if you want a full-on trail supershoe, i think currently the north face vectiv is currently the only carbon-plate/superfoam option.
as you can see here, saucony is also coming out with a trail version of the endorphin this year. looks like a few other companies are following suit. so perhaps you can try some options soon?
like you, i have a pair of endorphins that i like. but, i think on almost every single run in them, i take a stumble in that has me rolling my ankle or staggering a bit. no injuries or something (i have robust joints) but i can imagine doing a marathon after a long swim/bike, with a tired brain and legs . . . it might be dicey to be up on those big pillowy shoes. even at a sprint tri recently i opted for old-school minimalist flats rather than the endorphins, because there were a few off-road bits and several sharp corners. i just wanted to be low-slung and connected to the road.
we all got along fine before supershoes came along - i mean, just a few years ago. so maybe another option is to go for a ‘regular’ shoe that will give you total confidence on road and trail. you sacrifice the few seconds you get from the carbon plates, but you gain some back in peace of mind. in my case, i log a lot of my winter and off-road miles in the saucony peregrine. still quite good on pavement, but about the best traction i’ve ever found off-road, including in deep winter snow and ice, wet rock, the works. i’ve run thousands of miles in many pairs and am quite happy with them.
Maybe an insane idea but would it be feasible to cut some of the lugs off some hyper shoes like old school motorsport racers, and make a bit of an open lug pattern (even if they are short lugs, but it would give you some edge bite)
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Unless it is muddy, I don’t think you really need much in the way of lugs. I find that deep lugs just slow you down under most trail conditions. I ran comfortably on snowy trails today with my normal trail shoes with 3mm lugs.
I agree that some of the super shoes get a bit hard to control if the ground is really uneven. If it is dry grass, unpaved roads or smooth trails, I find super shoes are fine. If we are talking courses with sharp turns, steep climbs, rocks, and/or uneven surfaces, then I go with a racing flat with a grippy outersole. If the race is mostly technical trail, then lightweight racing trail shoes like a Salomon Sense Pro 4.
One thing not mentioned in this post is to go do some trail running before your race. That way you can see what shoes work for you. Trail running is definitely different from road running.
I wore my Endorphin Speeds during a mixed surface half marathon and was totally fine. It was even wet in spots and had no issues transitioning from the road, to gravel trail to wood cross bridges.
As mentioned, there are quite a number of trails shoes coming out with super foam and plates of some kind. Saucony, Salomon, Hoka (not a super foam), Craft, and probably more I can’t think of. That probably is not the direction you want to go because your race is not a trail race.
I am going to ask you a question and not judge. If you are thinking about a 4 hour marathon what will hour 4 look like? Will you be leaning into the run, getting your knees up and driving off your big toe or will you be running tired and lazy given the full day behind you. You want to choose your shoe for whatever that last hour will look like. I don’t think too many out there think this way. It’s really hard to put ego aside and be realistic.
The Shoes: I run with a guy (52 years old). He ran a super competitive Catalina Marathon (mostly trail) recently. When I say competitive I am not talking in his age group I am talking overall. He was at the very front of the race most of the day. He trains in and runs in both the Next % and Alpha Fly Next %. We ran together two weeks ago. 8 miles of single track and he had Alpha Flys.
Personally I have the following Super Shoes, FlyKnit 4%, Next %, RC Elite, Endorphin Pro, Adios Pro and Meta Speed Sky. If you can get your hands on the original RC Elite, it has the best outer sole for the type of surface you are talking about. I ran 4 cross country races last year all in that original shoe and had no issues. Tuesday we did a workout on the Championship course (cross country) in Mission Bay Park, San Diego. A 100% soft grass course. I had the RC Elite 2 on. It was early morning and the grass was wet. I was slipping all over the place. Had virtually no grip. That probably would have been true with any of these shoes. The one smart guy of our group had spikes on. There are pros and cons with all of the shoes I list (on trails). I think you pick the shoe you want to race in on the roads and practice running on trails now and then leading up to your Ironman.
I am going to ask you a question and not judge. If you are thinking about a 4 hour marathon what will hour 4 look like? Will you be leaning into the run, getting your knees up and driving off your big toe or will you be running tired and lazy given the full day behind you. You want to choose your shoe for whatever that last hour will look like. I don’t think too many out there think this way. It’s really hard to put ego aside and be realistic.
The last hour will be horrible, form will be in pieces and I will be regretting having ever agreed to entering another tri as always! In all seriousness though, the original run course was fast and flat, but the organizers have changed it…It will be a much slower course now, but more interesting. I’ve gone from wanting to ‘race’ it, to just being happy to finish respectably.
Running is not my strength, cycling is. (I would expect to be fairly close to the front coming into the run) My rationale for getting a pair of super shoes is to make my run as painless as possible - I know a few people who have run in the alphaflys and been surprized how much they helped towards the end of the marathon.
In the ideal world, I’d change my shoes between the paved and the trail sections, but obviously that isn’t realistic!
Your rationale is sound. Any of the super shoes will give you that feeling. I think choice is a good thing. That said, of course the most used are the Next % and the Alpha Fly Next %. The guy I run with used to run in racing flats all the time. When he was running in flats he could run 60-70 miles a week. In his block of training leading up the Catalina he was running 90 miles a week at 52 years old. He credits his ability to run that kind of mileage to the shoes. He does about 50% of all those miles on trails.
