Sub 80mm stem performance

I have been doing some experimenting with a super compact cockpit and have pulled my elbows underneath me a ton. Have been on a 110mm for some time, but have taken it down to 80 and it feels great. Such a different feel to turn off all those muscles I had grown accustomed to using and go ‘all skeletal’. I was thinking about buying an ever shorter one just to go too far so I know the other end of the spectrum.

For those who have or do ride shorter than 80mm did you notice anything detrimental? Hyper-twitchy? The 80 feels very solid to me on the road, but before I go buy anything shorter I thought I see how other folks experiences were.

Thanks

At one point, I used a 60mm stem and felt just fine on it. I changed bikes and aerobars, and now use an 80mm stem. But, I can’t say I ever had any concerns with the 60mm length.

I have felt fine on a 70mm. Once used an up-turned 70mm on a TT bike and that felt twitchy.

Almost anything can be ridden within reason. You could turn a stem backwards and learn to ride the bike (its been done). But at some point a non optimum design starts to compromise handling and comfort.

Generally 80mm - 130mm is pretty reasonable. Much longer or shorter on a bike not specificlally designed for it can start to get be an issue.

Doesn’t the elbow pad placement make a much bigger difference? Stem just helps that get to wherever it needs to be.

The stem length can also be bike size driven. Many size small bikes come with stems shorter than 80mm. If we put a size of bike into discussion, maybe able to draw more general conclusions. I agree on the upper end as I have not seen anything longer than 130.
I have been riding on E112 size small with 70mm for years with very enjoyable handling, super stable with no issues.

Stem length changes the steering feel because the length of the moment arm is the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by handlebar width/reach and stem length. I ride a 70 or 80 on my road bike (can’t remember which), and it is fine.

Trained exclusively on a TT bike with a 50mm stem for 3 years, no twitchiness nor handling issues whatsoever.

I’ve been looking for a 50-60mm stem but I’m not sure where to get them. I need a 25.8mm clamp (or 26 - whatever the smaller road clamp is). What are you guys using?

You’re an ME right? Do a quick set of drawings in CAD (2D is more than fine for this) with a few different stem lengths (say 80 mm versus 120 mm) while holding the elbow/hand position fixed (relative to your headset pivot point, do it at 20 cm c-c width and 40 cm c-c to model aerobars vs handlebars too) and then tell us how much the stem length affects things. Perhaps a difference between 0 and 15 degrees steer angle? I’d love to, but I no longer have access to the software to demo this, shouldn’t take more than 5 minutes to draw up.

I’m betting it makes no difference, because the true handling effect is between where you weight your hands/elbows and the pivot point drive everything. One may need a short/long stem in order to put ones hands/elbows in the right spot, but the actual stem length is pretty much immaterial.

I used a 60mm Syntace stem. Can’t remember which exact model (F99??).
I’ve been looking for a 50-60mm stem but I’m not sure where to get them. I need a 25.8mm clamp (or 26 - whatever the smaller road clamp is). What are you guys using?

You’re an ME right? Do a quick set of drawings in CAD (2D is more than fine for this) with a few different stem lengths (say 80 mm versus 120 mm) while holding the elbow/hand position fixed (relative to your headset pivot point, do it at 20 cm c-c width and 40 cm c-c to model aerobars vs handlebars too) and then tell us how much the stem length affects things. Perhaps a difference between 0 and 15 degrees steer angle? I’d love to, but I no longer have access to the software to demo this, shouldn’t take more than 5 minutes to draw up.

I’m betting it makes no difference, because the true handling effect is between where you weight your hands/elbows and the pivot point drive everything. One may need a short/long stem in order to put ones hands/elbows in the right spot, but the actual stem length is pretty much immaterial.

I missed this by a week or two, but as I believe I previously posted, I would suspect that stems within a certain length range won’t have a tremendously noticeable effect on the bike’s handling, but that’s qualitative stuff right there. I was AeroE, but I think I still have access to and ability to use Solidworks were it warranted here–it is a pretty simple geometry problem though, and Dan actually already did an article on this a while back. The stem length does affect the length of the steering lever arm, but if you presuppose as you do that the hand position does not change relative to the steering axis (a somewhat silly constraint…the rider’s hands are intended to be fitted on the hoods, so as the stem length changes, the distance between the hoods and the steerer tube changes) then the effect would basically be negligible, since it’s the distance between the hands and the steering axis that matters. The problem is that your supposition is flawed…the person will not maintain the same hand position (in coordinate space) relative to the steerer tube as the stem length changes–the hands will either move closer or further, but only by changing the grip on the bar (a somewhat irrelevant consideration since you would never fit someone such that their hands rested inches behind the intended position on the hoods) will the hands not move when the stem length is changed. Basically, the stem length definitely has an effect on the length of the steering lever arm, which in turn changes the way the bike handles a bit. Whether or not the effect will be noticeable (or positive or negative, if it is noticeable) is much more rider-specific. Dan has attempted to quantify the factors that will determine how well the bike handles, so when a stem length change is made, the change can be viewed in that context and it can be primitively determined whether or not the change will result in noticeably better or noticeably worse handling. As incredible as this may be, Dan described it much less verbosely than I did in the article I link below.

Look at the pictures…you can tell that the the stem length changes things. It is easy to determine how big of a change in geometry there is given some “example stems,” but the resulting “handling” of the bike is probably best described in the qualitative realm. As for the angle of the stem, the only thing that really matters is the projection of all the angles into the body-centered x-y plane (x axis projects out the front of the bike, parallel to the ground, y axis is perpendicular to the x-axis and points out to the right side of the bike). Intuitively, a stem with a very high angle has a very short effective length if you “flatten it out” by looking at it directly from above and only view it within the context of my so-called xy plane). The effect of changes in the stem angle on the effective stem length changes dramatically with angles between say 30 and 70 degrees. In other words, the effective length difference between a 5deg stem and a 10 deg stem is much less than the effective length difference between a 50deg stem and a 45 deg stem |(cos(10)-cos(5)| << |cos(50)-cos(45)|. Even though the difference in angle between the two stem pairs is 5degrees, there is a factor of 5 difference in the magnitude of the change in effective length.

Dan’s articles:
Steering Levers

Less relevant to our discussion but still a good read.
Steering Geometry

I think i have a few 60mm. 26.0. Deda. New in box. $20 includes shipping and paypal fees.

Zach,

Thanks for the articles–they explain my point exactly (and demo my request to boot). They also explain your point–I think you and I ended up talking a bit past each other and had different things in mind.

I think of stem length as a byproduct of my chosen touchpoints (elbows in the aerobars as first priority and hands on the horns as a secondary constraint) and the equipment chosen (specifically, frame and aerobars). If I’ve already purchased a frame and have my touchpoints set, then pretty much any permutation of aerobar + stem I choose won’t really change the handling of the bike. Use of really to exempt the case that Mr. Slowman himself brings up: the old vision integrated with the MASSIVE drop to the horns. Most of the base bars I’ve tried don’t seem to make that much difference in handling.

So we’re pretty much in agreement, just talking about different points.

Zach,

Thanks for the articles–they explain my point exactly (and demo my request to boot). They also explain your point–I think you and I ended up talking a bit past each other and had different things in mind.

I think of stem length as a byproduct of my chosen touchpoints (elbows in the aerobars as first priority and hands on the horns as a secondary constraint) and the equipment chosen (specifically, frame and aerobars). If I’ve already purchased a frame and have my touchpoints set, then pretty much any permutation of aerobar + stem I choose won’t really change the handling of the bike. Use of really to exempt the case that Mr. Slowman himself brings up: the old vision integrated with the MASSIVE drop to the horns. Most of the base bars I’ve tried don’t seem to make that much difference in handling.

So we’re pretty much in agreement, just talking about different points.

Once your fit is set up, stem changes within the realm of changes that make sense for your fit won’t appreciably affect the bike handling.

I think we’ve hit on somewhat of a tautology…basically, that swapping stems won’t affect your bike handling because in order for the stem to fit it will almost certainly fall within a range of lengths that is so similar to the one currently on the bike that the length difference will not appreciably affect the handling.

I’ve been looking for a 50-60mm stem but I’m not sure where to get them. I need a 25.8mm clamp (or 26 - whatever the smaller road clamp is). What are you guys using?
Found a 60mm at Nashbar.com a year ago.

I dunno if these are available where you are,

http://www.basicbikes.co.nz/products/handle_bar_stems/road_stems/4852-bbb_stems_roadforce_ii_260.aspx

I had to pull my stem back to 60mm from 90 after a fit session ( who would have thought a 6’3" clyde should be riding a med frame instead of a large )
those were the only thing my lbs could find that would fit my oval aerobar setup. 26.0 appears to be dead