Sub 6 minute 400m SCM Swim. Any advice welcome?

Triathlon Forum
1

So, I’ve set myself the rather arbituary (But ambitious) target of swimming under 6 minutes for 400m in a 25m pool, by the end of March. (Currently around 6.22)

I’m looking for some advice on the best sets to achieve this? I’m going to hazard a guess, at lots of short intervals (25s and 50s in order to improve speed etc? - something where I feel I am short)

A bit of background -

Adult onset swimmer. First triathlon completed in 2011. Realised what it took to get better and started training more seriously in 2013. Looking for my genetics to limit me, not my work ethic and lack of application.

October, November and December saw me getting to the pool 3 to 4 times a week. Three group swims, and one shorter lunchtime swim (‘Self coached’). I made a commitment to myself to try and get to the pool 5x per week in 2017. I have limited input in the group sessions on the sets, but other two sessions (40-45 minutes), are all my own doing.

My primary target is age group qualification for Oly Distance, in June, and felt my swim was lacking for this distance. (Hence the swim target - looking to build on this target between April & June for the 1500). I’ve done some sets of 25s and 50s, although probably not enough.

I do open turns as opposed to tumbleturns, not sure how much difference this makes. Would guess a well executed open turn is better than a poor tumble?

Other info, run according to BarryP, currently phase 2, and at about 40MPW. Cycle using trainer road, SSB2, low volume, then try and get a longer ride at weekends (Family dependant).

Any advice appreciated,

Cheers,

2

Have you had anyone look at your stroke, someone who knows what they are doing?

At 6:22 you probably have a reasonable stroke anyway but there is always something to improve.

I think end of March is hard. It took me about 6 months I think to go 6:22 to 5:54.

You need threshold work, sprints will get you used to quick turnover but 400m is distance and not sprinting. Do 400m reps with about 30 secs rest, aim to do them in about 6:50 ish.

Also look at the swim smooth red mist set. Its good for practice holding a pace when you are tired.

3

I’ve never really had much done in the stroke analysis area. I’ve tried to be a bit more conscious of what I’m doing in the pool, without obsessing each session. Correct hand entry placement, Trying not to drop the elbow etc. But never really sought feed back.

Yep, I also think it’s pretty ambitious, figured the worst that can happen is I end up 6.0* which wouldn’t be the end of the world.

My last 400m time trial was unexpected and at the end of set , maybe 4 weeks ago. I’m hopeful I’m quicker now, and although it wouldn’t be a fair comparison, I hope to be better prepared.

Can I ask what it took for you to get that time down? Frequency increases, distance increases etc?

Thanks for The advice. Looks sound. Will look up the swim smooth workout.

4

I have a coach who I see for 1-2-1 swim clinics every few months. He gives me drills to fix on my stroke and a training plan.

I swim 2-3 times per week, between 3-4K each session. My coach uses the swim smooth CSS method. You do a 400 & 200m time trial to get your threshold pace estimate. You then do your sets using a tempo trainer which beeps each length to pace your swim.

My sessions start with a warm up where I do the drills for stroke correction, then usually a build set of 4x50 say which might be start slow and build to fast.

The main set is usually then made up of various amounts of 100/200/300/400m intervals. All with 1 beep rest.

I also do 50x50 off 60ish every couple of weeks and do one speed session every couple which is 4x100/4x50/4x25 all done at full tilt with a lot of rest.

The swim smooth website has some sessions like 15-20 x 100m or 5 x 400m at CSS pace

I have found that since we moved the CSS training method my distance times 400m > have come down quite a bit whereas my sprint distances 25/50/100 haven’t improved that much but for triathlon that’s the way you want it!

5

My favorite for that kind of work is 10x100 at a sendoff that gives you 5-10s rest for the first one, and you should be trying to go sub 1:30 for each (just under your goal pace). If you can do that then you can go sub 6 easy

6

I would try to keep your 100m pace at 1:30.

Is that helpful?

But seriously, I like that goal. Might be a good challenge for me. I’m not there but would like to be there.

The only serious suggestion would be to learn how to do flip turns. I did and that and it helps a lot. Add flips to doing a real/proper streamline off the wall and you’ve found some serious time. Competitive swimmers do this for a reason.

7

Dropping 22 seconds in the 400 in 2 months is ambitious, but not impossible. I did something similar a couple years ago, dropping a little over 20 seconds in the 500 free in about that same amount of time, using Ultra Short Race Pace Training.

My main set to train for that event was 75’s at 500 race pace on an interval that gave me ~20 seconds rest.

Right now, you’re a 6:22 for a 400SCM. Take away 15 turns at a second a piece, gives you 6:07. Divide that by 16, that’s 22.93 per 25M. Close enough to 23.0 that we’ll round up. For a 75 at race pace, we’re going to take 23 times 3 and add 2 seconds for the two turns. So you should be swimming 75’s at a 1:11 pace on an interval of 1:30.

The point of the set is consistency. You want to swim just under 1:11 every time, building a neuromuscular “memory” of what swimming at that speed feels like. So the first couple might not be that hard, but the relatively short rest will start to cause you to fatigue. You keep going until you can’t make the target pace time. Then you skip an interval (extra 1:30 rest), then resume. That should be enough recovery that you can get back on the pace.

You go until you fail 2 intervals in a row, fail 3 times total, or get to 30 repeats.

If you can get to 20 repeats before your first failure, or get to the end of the set without failing 3 times, two workouts in a row, you’re ready to advance the pace. You drop your target time a second and start the process over.

If you can get to the point where, with a 1:07 target time, you can get into the upper-teens before your first failure, or into the mid-20’s before failing 3 times, you are probably ready to do a ~6:00 400M.

I also did sets of 50’s at a slightly faster pace. I would suggest you start at a :45 target time on a 1:05 interval. Same rules for failures and advancing the pace.

FWIW, I was also doing similar sets of 25’s at 100 race pace to work on my 100 free time.

Using these sets, I dropped from a 6:18 500 free (wall start) to a 5:54 (off the blocks) in about 10 weeks.

8

A simpler version of this post is to say that 6:00 is 1:30/100 or :45 per 50. I suggest series of 50s holding under :43, at an interval of maybe :55 or :60 per 50. Reasons: the OP gets to work at a more AN pace, while including a turn and two streamlines per repeat, thereby working on all those areas.

Holding anywhere from :41-44 will be similar to the pace on the first 1-2 50s. The rest is holding on so the average pace is :45.

A 400 is a short event. Therefore, several sets of 50s per wrkt are a great idea. Put another way: how would someone train to run <6:00 in a mile? Lots of horseshoes and 200s.

Another way: incorporate USRPT in this: 6-10 x 50 @ :20-25 rest, going fastest average. Two sets.

Sample wrkt: 400-500 w-u. 4 x 25 descend @ :35. 2x sets described above. A short kick set. Cool-down. Total: ~1700-2000m.

9

Another way: incorporate USRPT in this: 6-10 x 50 @ :20-25 rest, going fastest average. Two sets.

I certainly wouldn’t call that USRPT. The main tenet of USPRT is that swimming to failure is what drives the physiological adaptations.

It’s great to suggest that the OP swim at (or faster) than his goal pace, but he needs a road map how to get there from where he is now. There’s a pretty big gulf between 1:34.5/100 and 1:30/100.

10

Add flips to doing a real/proper streamline off the wall and you’ve found some serious time. Competitive swimmers do this for a reason.

^^^ This

You can probably save 2 secs per length with a good flip turn and pull out. So yes, sub-6 minutes is completely doable for you.

11

There’s also the question of pacing. I just did my annual sub 6 again to ‘celebrate’ turning 43. I always take the first 100m conservatively, then light the blue touch-paper from there i.e. flat-out. If I go all out from the start I just blow.

To get back to that sort of speed, I do a lot of:
20x50 off 55s (42/43s)
10x100 pull/finger paddle (swim in 1:24/5 off 1:40)
…that then gets me into shape to do:
20 x 100 off 1:45 (swim in 1:30)

If you can do that 20x100 then you will definitely be good to go.

12

Sounds like a fun project. I’m happy to help. Send me a PM.

I’ve worked with a lot of swimmers and triathletes to get faster and I don’t often see triathletes looking to specifically improve in a 400m swim.

Let me know.

Tim

13

flipturns are a lot faster, probably 1-2 seconds a turn

no other advice right now4
.

14

I did something similar a couple years ago, dropping a little over 20 seconds in the 500 free in about that same amount of time, using Ultra Short Race Pace Training.

My main set to train for that event was 75’s at 500 race pace on an interval that gave me ~20 seconds rest.

I think 75’s are great, especially at intensity with 15-20 seconds rest…BUT(!) that is not remotely USRPT. That is called “what swimmers have done for decades.”

15

I did something similar a couple years ago, dropping a little over 20 seconds in the 500 free in about that same amount of time, using Ultra Short Race Pace Training.

My main set to train for that event was 75’s at 500 race pace on an interval that gave me ~20 seconds rest.

I think 75’s are great, especially at intensity with 15-20 seconds rest…BUT(!) that is not remotely USRPT. That is called “what swimmers have done for decades.”

“What swimmers have done for decades” would bet to have a set of a number of repeats on a particular interval, and swim them all, regardless of how much the swimmers’ speed and stroke quality deteriorated through the set. What makes my suggestion different (and what qualifies it as USPRT) is

  1. Not only is an interval assigned, but a target time for each repeat that correlates to race pace for a particular event
  2. The “swim to failure, but not beyond” concept where you rest for an interval when/if you miss a target time
  3. The abandonment of the concept that you must complete a certain number of repeats. With USPRT, you have an “offered” number of repeats, but the expectation is that you won’t make it to the end before you fail to make your target time either twice in a row, or three times total. If you make all offered repeats two workouts in a row, you increase the pace at the next workout with the expectation that you won’t be able to make all offered repeats at the new, faster pace.
16

I did something similar a couple years ago, dropping a little over 20 seconds in the 500 free in about that same amount of time, using Ultra Short Race Pace Training.

My main set to train for that event was 75’s at 500 race pace on an interval that gave me ~20 seconds rest.

I think 75’s are great, especially at intensity with 15-20 seconds rest…BUT(!) that is not remotely USRPT. That is called “what swimmers have done for decades.”

“What swimmers have done for decades” would bet to have a set of a number of repeats on a particular interval, and swim them all, regardless of how much the swimmers’ speed and stroke quality deteriorated through the set. What makes my suggestion different (and what qualifies it as USPRT) is

  1. Not only is an interval assigned, but a target time for each repeat that correlates to race pace for a particular event
  2. The “swim to failure, but not beyond” concept where you rest for an interval when/if you miss a target time
  3. The abandonment of the concept that you must complete a certain number of repeats. With USPRT, you have an “offered” number of repeats, but the expectation is that you won’t make it to the end before you fail to make your target time either twice in a row, or three times total. If you make all offered repeats two workouts in a row, you increase the pace at the next workout with the expectation that you won’t be able to make all offered repeats at the new, faster pace.

I think the first time I did a target set of hard 50’s or 75’s as you described was 1986. I think the 100th time I did a set as your described was 1986. The first year I did year round swimming…also 1986. Urbancek came out with his target charts in 1990. Bruce Gemmel said this, “Did we do a lot of drills? If you call lots of 100’s at race pace a drill then yes, we did lots of drills.”

Coaches have no patience for swimmers who cannot properly pace a set. The idea that a good coach would sit around and allow the swimmer to slowdown and deteriorate is pure fantasy. I suppose I wouldn’t dispute that there are bad coaches out there…

But hey, if calling it USRPT makes you pay attention to your pace… great. And the fact that we are having this discussion and emphasizing that what really matters: consistent pace, consistent effort, is great too.

17

Add flips to doing a real/proper streamline off the wall and you’ve found some serious time. Competitive swimmers do this for a reason.

^^^ This

You can probably save 2 secs per length with a good flip turn and pull out. So yes, sub-6 minutes is completely doable for you.

Yep, there’s what… 15 walls in 400 SCM so even if you take 1.5 sec off each wall you’re there.

18

I did something similar a couple years ago, dropping a little over 20 seconds in the 500 free in about that same amount of time, using Ultra Short Race Pace Training.

My main set to train for that event was 75’s at 500 race pace on an interval that gave me ~20 seconds rest.

I think 75’s are great, especially at intensity with 15-20 seconds rest…BUT(!) that is not remotely USRPT. That is called “what swimmers have done for decades.”

“What swimmers have done for decades” would bet to have a set of a number of repeats on a particular interval, and swim them all, regardless of how much the swimmers’ speed and stroke quality deteriorated through the set. What makes my suggestion different (and what qualifies it as USPRT) is

  1. Not only is an interval assigned, but a target time for each repeat that correlates to race pace for a particular event
  2. The “swim to failure, but not beyond” concept where you rest for an interval when/if you miss a target time
  3. The abandonment of the concept that you must complete a certain number of repeats. With USPRT, you have an “offered” number of repeats, but the expectation is that you won’t make it to the end before you fail to make your target time either twice in a row, or three times total. If you make all offered repeats two workouts in a row, you increase the pace at the next workout with the expectation that you won’t be able to make all offered repeats at the new, faster pace.

I think the first time I did a target set of hard 50’s or 75’s as you described was 1986. I think the 100th time I did a set as your described was 1986. The first year I did year round swimming…also 1986. Urbancek came out with his target charts in 1990. Bruce Gemmel said this, “Did we do a lot of drills? If you call lots of 100’s at race pace a drill then yes, we did lots of drills.”

Coaches have no patience for swimmers who cannot properly pace a set. The idea that a good coach would sit around and allow the swimmer to slowdown and deteriorate is pure fantasy. I suppose I wouldn’t dispute that there are bad coaches out there…

But hey, if calling it USRPT makes you pay attention to your pace… great. And the fact that we are having this discussion and emphasizing that what really matters: consistent pace, consistent effort, is great too.

I swam year round through the 80’s, too. Sounds like you had coaches that were pretty progressive for the time. We would get sets like 40x100 on 1:10, and the coach knew damn well most of us would be behind the interval by about the 30th repeat, just touching and going. Was he a “bad coach?” I don’t know, I was team-mates with over a dozen HS All Americans, four of whom went on to be NCCA DI All Americans. The “swim them to exhaustion, repeatedly, then taper them at the end of the season” system seemed the norm back then.

I personally didn’t responded as well to that type of training as I think I would have to something more race pace focused.

19

I think a lot more thought goes in to your swim training, than I put into mine. (That’s a compliment BTW).

I think structure from week to week is where I lack, and I often just decide on the day how I’m feeling, and that determines what set I do, and how fast I do it. There is a small amount of irony here, as bike workouts are structured, I push hard, and I look at the data after. Running is also fairly goal orientated on a weekly basis.

I would suggest the triathlete stereotype for swim effort is that most of us don’t swim ‘hard’ enough. I am guilty of falling into that camp often. Group sessions probably less so, because that competitive edge has a habit of coming out and I tend to push a bit harder.

I am familiar with CSS training, although have never done anything with it. I will certainly look into this.

Cheers.

20

A solid set. I know I need to get in this ballpark with 100s to have a shot at 400 straight at this pace.