I have been trying to run a sub 3 marathon for two years now. Ran a 3.03 in 2012 and a 3.05 earlier this year in the infamous Boston Marathon.
I’m wondering what kind of split I should run?
In rotterdam I tried to split even and lost 3 minutes in the last part (due to stiffness). In Boston I ran the first half in the low 1.28 but had big problems with the hills in the end.
I’m doing Berlin next week. Training has been going really well. I did lots of triathlons this summer, Ironman Nice, one half and 2 olympic and been training since January for those. I have been running now average 70km a week for 2 months in a sub 3 marathon specific plan.
I can keep race pace with a 150bpm pulse (usually I ran my marathon 167) and just ran a 39.34 10k in a rather hill country side training run with 150 alt meters.
I’m thinking about a 1.30 first half and try to speed up a bit the last 10k. I don’t wanna run a too slow firts half, cuase I know it’s hard to run fast in the end.
Personally I don’t think 70k/wk is enough if the sub 3 is right near your limit which it looks like. On a flat 10k, you need to be near 39 minutes so your hilly 10k sounds close. I go against most people and think a positive split is better for those lower mileage runners. I think doing the first half in 1:28 is a better idea.
I also like doing marathon pace long runs. I build up to a 20 mile long run with the middle 16 at marathon pace. Before that, lots of 10 milers at marathon pace to get used to the pace and make sure it is doable.
Thanks very helpful. I do spend quite a few hours on the bike still every week. So can’t fit much more in. Although the last two weeks where close to a 100, now building down!
I think going 1.28 might be a good plan, nice to have an extra minute to spare in the end. Weather looks perfect so far!
Yeah, I’ll agree with the other guy in that I don’t think your mileage is high enough for someone right on the border of breaking 3 hours. If you really want to break 3 hours, drop some of the bike mileage.
You are very close to breaking 3 hours with way less than than optimal training, bike less, run more, and you’ll be there.
You didn’t lose three minutes at the end of Rotterdam due to stiffness, you lost 3 minutes due to lack of run fitness.
Good luck, you’re close and you might do it, but if you don’t I think it would be very easy for you to do so with a little more mileage.
I agree wit hothers. For open marathon running near your potential, you have to cut cycling down to probably at most 2 rides per week.
What type of quality runs are you doing? You might also be lacking specifity. Just running long and slow miles all week won’t cut it to get faster. I have a friend that only does marathons and I while he understands this, I still can’t get him committed to doing any type of pace work. Sure he’s only a 4:00hr marathoner, but that doesn’t mean he won’t benefit from doing things like 2x20minutes at 1/2 marathon pace to try and improve economy and get his threshold up.
Too late now with a only a few weeks out… but how is your weight? Dropping just 2 lbs could get your 2 minutes. Could you tolerate a slightly lighter racing flat without risking injury? Might get a 5 second per mile bump there depending on what your racing in now.
"You didn’t lose three minutes at the end of Rotterdam due to stiffness, you lost 3 minutes due to lack of run fitness. "
it’s important to be honest with yourself on what’s working and what’s not. you’re probably a touch low on mileage since you seem to have hit a plateau. All the biking isn’t helping. If you were trying to go from 4:30 to 3:30, maybe, the improved cardiovascular fitness would help. Not really trying to go from 3:05 to 2:59:xx. You need specificity both in terms of overall mileage and race-specific prep (mileage at marathon pace, 1/2 marathon pace and even some 10K pace work).
Thanks for all the replies. If it doesn’ work again this time around. I’ll be sure to put some more miles in.
I have been doing this schedule which has a fair amount of speed work http://www.runnersworld.ltd.uk/acatalog/sub_3_hour_schedule.html
Has been pretty manageable and I have added swim, bike and core workouts.
Only the 1.23 1/2 marathon didn’t work out. I live in finland in the hills and could only manage a 1.27 (with well over 200 alt meters though).
I have been trying to drop some weight cause I have gotten so close, but it’s hard. I’m now 68.5 kilos (151 pounds) and stand 1.83 cm (6 feet) tall. As a triathlete I also pack a bit of extra muscles on my legs and upper body. So I really have to starve myself to go any lower (my wife is already complaining about the bones sticking out
I agree with the other posters about the need for more fitness and miles. I am running the Chicago Marathon next month and ran Boston earlier this year. For Boston I still swam/biked but kept my weekly mileage up to about 50ish miles a week with like 3 20 mile runs in there. For Chicago I have been almost exclusively run only since the last weekend of August. I have been at 60+ miles the last few weeks and will hit another big week this week before starting the taper. Someone also mentioned specificity of training. I have 3 key workouts a week that involve different paces and in my long run I will add in some MP work or HMP pace running. This weekend’s run is going to be no joke with the last 30 minutes @ half marathon pace. I also try to negative split all my marathons if the course allows. Going out a bit slower works for me since I don’t burn my matches at the start of the race then I go balls out the last few miles since I know I won’t bonk. Also, this should be obvious but pay attention to your nutrition during the race. There is nothing worse than getting to mile 22 and realizing a mistake you made at mile 7 is coming back to bite you in the ass. Keep up the work and race smart!
Compare the course back half to front. If it is flat (even) run a 1:30:XX and if you are fit to run sub 3:00 it will happen, if the course is faster in first half you may want to put 60-90 seconds in the bank, but much more than this could be damaging since your fitness seems to be right on the border.
You are going to need to stay close to goal pace since your times/training are indicative that you will need a “true” PR (in this case PR = Physiological Record) to go sub-3. Other variables will be more critical i.e. temperature, wind, nutrition… since you are on the borderline.
We must have run together for most of the Boston marathon. I was low 1:28 but somehow pulled off a 2:59:10. We’re you the guy with the t-shirt that had “Sub-3 ?” on the back? For me, no magic. I wore a pace band and tried for even splts with a little wiggle room. My advice is to keep your core temp down, focus on each mile split (and not the big picture goal) and work your nutrition (for me, I had 6-7 Gu Roctanes and water and gatorade at every stop). At the end of the day, it is muscle memory on the run for the last 6 + mental confidence. I definitely think you can pull it off. Good luck and don’t give into the demons at the end.
If the goal is to run a really great marathon, then take 6 months or a year and train properly to run a really great marathon. “Normal” triathlon training will only get you so far. Looks like you have reached the plateau of how far that will get you. Time to re-think it all.
In the process, considering racing more shorter races in the 5K to 10K range. Many rec runners and triathletes eschew racing at these distances almost completely, yet these races treated as hard training sessions, push the exact right physiological buttons that really move the fitness needle.
If the goal is to run a really great marathon, then take 6 months or a year and train properly to run a really great marathon. “Normal” triathlon training will only get you so far. Looks like you have reached the plateau of how far that will get you. Time to re-think it all.
In the process, considering racing more shorter races in the 5K to 10K range. Many rec runners and triathletes eschew racing at these distances almost completely, yet these races treated as hard training sessions, push the exact right physiological buttons that really move the fitness needle.
5k’s are short, but mentally I think they are equally as hard to run fast as a 1/2 marathon. Running at threshold for a little over an hour, in a lot of ways is easier than being well into anaerobic range for 15-20 minutes. I’m one of those that feels like other than the last 4-5 miles of the run, a 70.3 is a lot easier than an Olympic. You spend most of your time in a 70.3 reminding yourself to slow down. In an Olympic your constantly reminding yourself to go faster most of the time. In a short sprint… it’s HTFU 100% of the time… because the thing is over in a flash.
I wasn’t wearing that shirt (sounds like bad luck to me ;), but congrats on the sub 3. Those hills killed me in the end!
My 2 main goals in sports are to get to Kona and to run a sub 3 hour marathon (the third one was to get a black t-shirt in the norseman race, which I got last year!). Of course triathlon training boths helps and gets in the way of running goals, but I think knocking of 3 minutes should be doable.
This year I managed to break most of my records (5k, 10k, half m and olympic, half and full tri) so I feel like things are falling in it’s place. I know I haven’t been putting in the monster miles, but I feel that the bike training has helped me (also to stay injury free).
Last year when I ran a 3.03 I did a tri-schedule with only 3 runs a week. I have also been working on my running technique and core a lot the last half year. I use newton shoes now (gravity and mv2) and can really recommend them! It’s much easier to run faster and to maintain that pace. Also as a vegetarian I have been more aware of my protein and iron in take and feel a lot stronger.
This morning I ran a 8k run at 4.11 pace (in the hills here) and with an average pulse of 150 it felt very comfortable most of my marathons are 168 average. I’m 36 years old). So I feel pretty confident, but of course you never know! Berlin is fast and flat and the weather usually sucks (the long forcast says 10 degrees celsius, so perfect for running).
So will let you know how it went, hopefully I have a good day. Think I will split 1.29.00 ish and then close my eyes the last 3 miles!
You were close at Boston, which is net downhill, but hilly late in the race. That benefits elites, but hurts casual runners more. I bet you’ll get it. Berlin is super flat and fast, which should be better for you.
Just try to hit each mile/km right on pace, and run smart. Don’t neglect the aid stations and don’t try to build up too much of a time surplus. 1:28 for the first half seems fine, but not much more.
Thanks for all the replies. If it doesn’ work again this time around. I’ll be sure to put some more miles in.
I have been doing this schedule which has a fair amount of speed work http://www.runnersworld.ltd.uk/...3_hour_schedule.html
Has been pretty manageable and I have added swim, bike and core workouts.
Only the 1.23 1/2 marathon didn’t work out. I live in finland in the hills and could only manage a 1.27 (with well over 200 alt meters though).
I have been trying to drop some weight cause I have gotten so close, but it’s hard. I’m now 68.5 kilos (151 pounds) and stand 1.83 cm (6 feet) tall. As a triathlete I also pack a bit of extra muscles on my legs and upper body. So I really have to starve myself to go any lower (my wife is already complaining about the bones sticking out
thanks!
my fastest 10k is 40:06, 13.1 at 1:28 I am same height as you but I weighed 79.5 Kilo at the time I ran 2:59 (thought I was screwed with my bodyweight and ahilles heal problem) … when I am 75kilo I notice loss of performance. I put around 160km per week for 5 weeks before the marathon, lots of slow paced work
The marathon went perfect, ran a relaxed first half in 1.29.08, with a rather low pulse (around 152, usually my marathons have been 168 av). Then felt great in the second part, no wall no nausea. Managed to speed up and ran a 1.27.58 second half. Finished in 2.57.06. Managed to ran almost 600 meters extra (was very crowded!, my watch time was 2.54.30 for the gps marathon). Felt great, Think I could have gone faster even!
For me the lower milage with mostly focussing on technique and speed quality and keeping the longhauls for the bike, really worked to keep me injury free and improve my technique and pace.
I have to say though that I have been running a lot of marathons in the last 5 years, so did a lot of long runs in the past.
Congrats! Super nice achievement! I just finished my first ever marathon in 3u13 after being 1 year into running and triathlon from a cycling background. I am very curious to learn from you or others how you approach something like this. When I was looking into sub3 schedules I found this means 80-100km per week. How do you combine that with cycling and swimming (i have max 12h a week roughly next to work and family). I understand that during peak weeks (3-7 weeks prior to the marathon) i can bike and swim less obviously. You referred to this schedule: http://www.runnersworld.ltd.uk/...3_hour_schedule.html.
My question is: did you use this in the end or did you tweak it to less km’s because as triathlete you also training you body with biking and swimming, perhaps you bike and swim workouts were tailored to serve the marathon goal? My next marathon is Paris in April 2023, with some shorter runs races scheduled in the months before. Thereafter the Tri season start for me in June with a 70.3 very likely so a bit of bike and swim needs to happen in the first months of the year as well. After summer i am considering a sub10 140.6 ironman.
Any advice is more than welcome
