I’ve never looked at strokes per minute in a 25 yard pool. I didn’t even know it was a stat on the Garmin935 until I saw it today on Garmin Connect. I’ve been swimming with it for 2 years :).
Anyway, my strokes rate is 25 per arm, so 50 strokes per minute. That sounds low. Avg pace 1:54/100 yards.
Thoughts?
Yes it’s low, but I would humbly suggest that at the pace you’re swimming, you aren’t getting very high DPS either. How many strokes per length are you taking?
While you want to learn how to bump up the turnover rate, you do not want to to that at the expense of DPS. In your situation, You really want to do both increase stroke rate and decrease strokes per length. It’s totally doable, too…
I avg 24 strokes per 25 yards.
I avg 24 strokes per 25 yards.
Assuming that you’re taller than 5’0. I’d pay more attention to getting spl down.
Put it this way, when I’m swimming at your pace, I’m doing waaaay under 50 strokes per minute. Probably half that.
I separate it in my head that stroke rate is an effort thing, but Distance per stroke is a technical thing. Both need to be trained.
Id imagine there is a tipping where the faster you go the ‘harder’ the water becomes and the greater your catch and distance per stoke becomes? What I mean is if you move your hand very slowly through the water there is hardly any resistance-you aren’t grabbing much of the water. If you then slap the water hard and fast its like cement.
So there must be a speed/tipping point where swimming becomes much more efficient?
Thanks. I recently started my stroke after I was a body length past the flags. I was stroking when my head reached the flags. But, my 24 strokes per 25 yards has been pretty static since I started swimming 4 years ago. I have gotten faster. I was at 2:10/100 yards. I got faster but my strokes per length stayed the same.
that is pretty much my pace.~2min/100y and I’m doing 24/25 strokes a min
.
Yes it’s low, but I would humbly suggest that at the pace you’re swimming, you aren’t getting very high DPS either. How many strokes per length are you taking?
While you want to learn how to bump up the turnover rate, you do not want to to that at the expense of DPS. In your situation, You really want to do both increase stroke rate and decrease strokes per length. It’s totally doable, too…
1:10 swimmer at around 60 strokes per minute. Takes 24 strokes per 50…with a massive dolphin kick mind you.
Thanks. I recently started my stroke after I was a body length past the flags. I was stroking when my head reached the flags…
Keep in mind, time you spend streamlining off the wall (and doing the actual turn, be it an open turn or a flip turn) is included in the calculation even though you’re not stroking. On top of that, the Garmin can only detect every other stroke and, therefore, has a stroke count margin of error of +/- ~3-6% in a short course pool . Obviously, if the time stroking isn’t accurate, and the stroke count isn’t accurate, the resulting stroke rate calculation is worthless.
If you want to know what your stroke rate really is, do a longish open water swim with no walls, or have yourself videoed in the pool and do a manual calculation based on a segment without turns.
But I agree with Jason that you should probably be more concerned at this point with your DPS/SPL.
Has anyone tested to see if the garmin gives an accurate stroke rate?
Surely the stroke rate it gives would be just the number of stokes taken for a given length of time, So the time turing at wall and under the water will effect this and drop the value.
Strokes per length would be right i guess and Stroke in rate open water but not in a pool 🤷â€â™‚ï¸
Has anyone tested to see if the garmin gives an accurate stroke rate?
Surely the stroke rate it gives would be just the number of stokes taken for a given length of time, So the time turing at wall and under the water will effect this and drop the value.
Strokes per length would be right i guess and Stroke in rate open water but not in a pool 🤷â€â™‚ï¸
the issue with the garmin is that it only measures one arm, i.e. stroke cycles, and doesn’t report a half stroke cycle, so the number of strokes it reports can be off by a stroke depending on whether you start and finish the length with the same arm or not.
add in the inaccuracy for turn time, and the garmin stroke rate number isn’t really very useful if you are trying to compare stroke rate in the pool to open water. OW will report as being higher even if the actual stroke rate is the same.
thanks for posting this video…looks awesome and its amazing what kind of propulsion through the water his arm generates.
Uli
Swim smooth has some general guidelines on stroke rate.
https://swimsmooth.com/improve/intermediate/rhythm-timing-and-stroke-rate-in-swimming
Yes it’s low, but I would humbly suggest that at the pace you’re swimming, you aren’t getting very high DPS either. How many strokes per length are you taking?
While you want to learn how to bump up the turnover rate, you do not want to to that at the expense of DPS. In your situation, You really want to do both increase stroke rate and decrease strokes per length. It’s totally doable, too…
1:10 swimmer at around 60 strokes per minute. Takes 24 strokes per 50…with a massive dolphin kick mind you.
These videos are beautiful to watch, but ultimately I suspec they are unrealistic for most AG swimmers who don’t have the body type of that swimmer. Meaning being very tall, also with very long arms, and having large hands as well to give maximum area per pull.
I’ve been noticing this a lot lately, as I finally started swimming a lot with paddles+PB (or lava pants). I’m short with small hands to begin with, so I have always had a fast, choppy turnoverthat is closer to the chaos of Janet Evans (even though I’m a dude) than any other top competitive swimmer, to my dismay. However, once I added paddles, my stroke rate slowed, I got faster, and for sure felt like I was looking a lot more like these tall swimmers with giant hands/arms. The PB just makes it even more smooth, but only by a hair - the biggest difference for me is the paddle (which is only medium sized, not a large one).
I however, still go back to Janet-Evans style fast, choppy swimming if I take off the paddles and try and maintain similar speed without them. I don’t think there is any avoiding it. If someone has a video of someone shorter than 5’8" swimming as fast as that guy in the video with 60spm, would love to see it.
Strava has me at 23 spm @avg 1:23/100 for my 3700 swim this morning. Just realized this must be incorrect: What does SPM mean in Strava?
Yes it’s low, but I would humbly suggest that at the pace you’re swimming, you aren’t getting very high DPS either. How many strokes per length are you taking?
While you want to learn how to bump up the turnover rate, you do not want to to that at the expense of DPS. In your situation, You really want to do both increase stroke rate and decrease strokes per length. It’s totally doable, too…
1:10 swimmer at around 60 strokes per minute. Takes 24 strokes per 50…with a massive dolphin kick mind you.
Really nice stroke but not 60 spm. I timed him at 48-49
Yes it’s low, but I would humbly suggest that at the pace you’re swimming, you aren’t getting very high DPS either. How many strokes per length are you taking?
While you want to learn how to bump up the turnover rate, you do not want to to that at the expense of DPS. In your situation, You really want to do both increase stroke rate and decrease strokes per length. It’s totally doable, too…
1:10 swimmer at around 60 strokes per minute. Takes 24 strokes per 50…with a massive dolphin kick mind you.
These videos are beautiful to watch, but ultimately I suspec they are unrealistic for most AG swimmers who don’t have the body type of that swimmer. Meaning being very tall, also with very long arms, and having large hands as well to give maximum area per pull.
I’ve been noticing this a lot lately, as I finally started swimming a lot with paddles+PB (or lava pants). I’m short with small hands to begin with, so I have always had a fast, choppy turnoverthat is closer to the chaos of Janet Evans (even though I’m a dude) than any other top competitive swimmer, to my dismay. However, once I added paddles, my stroke rate slowed, I got faster, and for sure felt like I was looking a lot more like these tall swimmers with giant hands/arms. The PB just makes it even more smooth, but only by a hair - the biggest difference for me is the paddle (which is only medium sized, not a large one).
I however, still go back to Janet-Evans style fast, choppy swimming if I take off the paddles and try and maintain similar speed without them. I don’t think there is any avoiding it. If someone has a video of someone shorter than 5’8" swimming as fast as that guy in the video with 60spm, would love to see it.
No video, but one of the guys I swim with can easily swim 1:10’s at 60spm or less, he’s about 5’10, so just a little bit taller than your cutoff. He just happens to be an Olympian, so there’s that. He’s far from your average AOS triathlete. but yeah, it’s possible.
Do the math. If you take pretty much any sub 1:50 200m swimmer doing 80spm and scale back the pace to a 2:20 200m, keeping the same DPS that’s 63 spm. but on top of that, swimming easier lets you (if you want to) increase your DPS as well. There are plenty of guys in the 5’8-5’10 range who fit that description.
I still think it’s unusual for shorter guys to swim with such low DPS, I’ll almost bet that a 5’10" guy swimming 1:10-1:15 at <60spm has a wingspan of 6’2"+ and has some giant hands to boot.
If you’re in the 6’0 range - let’s take you and make fists to reduce your hand area to more like someone who is 5’0-5’4". Without even cutting your arm length down to size to match, your DPS would go up a fair amount to maintain the same speed. I’ll be impressed if you’re at 60.
I do wonder if it’s even physically possible for Janet Evans at 5’5" to swim 1:10s with 60spm. I watch her video where she’s swimming faster than this, and it’s well over 60spm. And I don’t think anyone’s going to argue that her catch is inefficient or weak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRhpZdm9b3Q
I also add the (obvious, but worth stating) that the more powerful your kick, the lower your DPS has to be. I don’t think that’s a fair comparison, for someone who is kick-heavy for propulsion vs a minimal kicker (the tall youtube guy seems like a minimal kicker in that video.)
I still think it’s unusual for shorter guys to swim with such low DPS, I’ll almost bet that a 5’10" guy swimming 1:10-1:15 at <60spm has a wingspan of 6’2"+ and has some giant hands to boot.
If you’re in the 6’0 range - let’s take you and make fists to reduce your hand area to more like someone who is 5’0-5’4". Without even cutting your arm length down to size to match, your DPS would go up a fair amount to maintain the same speed. I’ll be impressed if you’re at 60.
I do wonder if it’s even physically possible for Janet Evans at 5’5" to swim 1:10s with 60spm. I watch her video where she’s swimming faster than this, and it’s well over 60spm. And I don’t think anyone’s going to argue that her catch is inefficient or weak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRhpZdm9b3Q
nope. he’s pretty average looking. arms aren’t exceptionally long, hands are probably same size as mine, maybe a bit smaller? I’m a hair under 5’10.
why are we all of a sudden talking about people in the 5’0 to 5’4 range?
I still think it’s unusual for shorter guys to swim with such low DPS, I’ll almost bet that a 5’10" guy swimming 1:10-1:15 at <60spm has a wingspan of 6’2"+ and has some giant hands to boot.
If you’re in the 6’0 range - let’s take you and make fists to reduce your hand area to more like someone who is 5’0-5’4". Without even cutting your arm length down to size to match, your DPS would go up a fair amount to maintain the same speed. I’ll be impressed if you’re at 60.
I do wonder if it’s even physically possible for Janet Evans at 5’5" to swim 1:10s with 60spm. I watch her video where she’s swimming faster than this, and it’s well over 60spm. And I don’t think anyone’s going to argue that her catch is inefficient or weak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRhpZdm9b3Q
nope. he’s pretty average looking. arms aren’t exceptionally long, hands are probably same size as mine, maybe a bit smaller? I’m a hair under 5’10.
why are we all of a sudden talking about people in the 5’0 to 5’4 range?
Just to use Janet Evans as an example. It’s helpful to use extremes of size to illustrate points.
Something’s got to give to swim with very low DPS. It’s just not possible using physics to pull with such low DPS without the huge stroke area afforded by long arms or big hands, unless you are kicking a lot.
I don’t buy that that the drag differential is the main determinant - if drag were the main thing, powerful Janet Evans would swim super fast with low DPS.
My DPS goes down a lot and my swim ‘smoothness’ also improves a lot the moment I put on paddles and get that big area. Conversely, I have the opposite effect when I make small fists and try and swim at the same speed - you will too regardless of how fast you are. That’s not a drag issue - that’s entirely a surface area propoulsion issue.