Strength training nutrition question

Triathlon Forum
1

i’m weak and need to put in some time building some strength…i’m following gordo’s strength program and the training bible…

nutrition to maxamize my time in the gym is my concern…along with supplements…i have found that the whey supplement i’m using dosen’t work as well as eating egg whites…what brand whey is good??

my question is what do you eat and what supplements are helpful when you are trying to gain some strength

any recommendations for brands of supplements that have high quality products…

i know weight training is controversial around here but for a skinny, high metabolism person, what are some efficient nutrition approaches…

thanks and i’ve learned a ton from all of you…it’s so cool a newbie gets to read from all this expertise and experience…and for free…

2

You do NOT need to take protein supplements for the kind of weight training you would do as a triathlete. That is all marketing crap from companies trying to sell you things that you do not need to get your money. Also, overconsuming protein has some serious side effects on your system and on your calcium absorption. Eat a decent balanced diet and you will be fine. What exactly is a balanced diet? Well, try reading “Eating Well for Optimum Health: The Essential Guide to Food, Diet, and Nutrition”, by Andrew Weil. That should get you started.

3

i use whey protein whenever i do strenous excercise in the gym. like if i do pyramids for my quads, hams and calves, or if i am doing the same for any upper body as well. i dont take it to get bigger and i dont expect to get any stronger quicker by taking it. but i do take it because ,for me anyways, it reduces my recovery time in half. and it reduces the pain after my weekend training rides as well.The brand i use is called designer whey protein. but just as a side note i dont take the recomended amount of three servings a day. i use maybe a third of that because i dont want to have kidney failure later in life from taking too much protein as a teenager.By the way one serving is 52.5 grams of protein. my .02

4

it seems like one can get deep discussion on what type of cranks here, or seat angle, is this stuff really gonna make as much a difference as building the best nutrition and body plan possable…you mention how suplements are hype…and i don’t know any better to disagree…but it seems to me that an obsession on bike materials is hype compared to finding the best foods to eat…give a pro a 1980 schwinn with 7 gears and they’ll still win because they are in amazing condition…

5

My advice would be to use a carb drink when in the gym to help with those lifts later in the session. That will reduce muscle/protein breakdown somewhat to start with, but afterwards consume carbs and protein in the 4:1 ratio often recommended (use a specific drink, whey protein drink, or just good old fashioned food & a glass of milk). The protein element will prevent further muscle breakdown, from muscles you have not worked-out, to supply the amino acids needed to start repairing those you have worked-out.

If you follow these two tips I’m sure you’ll recover quickly and make very good gains. I get the impression that poor nutrition during and after workouts is the downfall of many athletes. Why put in the hard workouts (which most of us do) if you’re not going to help the recovery process by feeding properly? Use the carb drink AND the recovery drink/food/protein afterwards.

6

There can be bad side-effects from taking too much protein? do you mean in general or for more of a exclusive protein-only diet. I’ve heard of potential liver and kidney problem resulting from ketosis (a la atkins diet) but I was under the impression it only occured when you didn’t have enough other energy (carbs) to offset ketosis. Am I wrong? Is there a problem with protein supplementing when you are currently on a high-carb diet?

7

I am no expert about this. Bur read any good nutrition book written by someone who draws from unbiased research. Andrew Weil is good because he has no product to sell or ax to grind (I guess he does sell books ,but he is not selling some ‘magic’ diet). Anyway, about the side effects: for example, if you consume more protein than is needed to re-build your body (most people, even endurance athletes don’t really need that much), your body will burn the ‘extra’ protein for calories (as fuel or to store as fat).

One side effect of this is that the breakdown products of this process (which is very inefficient and not ideal for athletic performance) give human kidneys a very tough time. (I say human because, for example, cats’ kidneys can handle this with no problem). The dumping of the breakdown products causes a number of things to occur. One is that your body will dump calcium. If you eat a lot of calcium, a lot will get dumped. If you don’t eat a lot of calcium, your body will effectively pull calcium from your bones. Even Dave Scott writes about this in his book ‘Triathlon Training’. Needless to say, this is not a good thing and is just one reason why having bizarre diets with heavy protein intakes is not a good thing.

8

I disagree with you. Endurance athletes and the endurance community for years tried to say what you are saying that protein is bad for you and dangerous to your kidneys, etc. Well, now protein is becoming more and more important to these same people that said it wasn’t important. Hype nothing, higher protein diets are effective.

Training and racing causes a lot of muscle breakdown, protein is the main macronutrient in the rebuilding process. If you want to get stronger and gain more lean tissue you are going to have to consume more protein…that’s a fact. Check out Phil Maffetones book Eating For Endurance. He discusses the importance of Protein. You cite Dave Scott, well Dave Scott understands the importance of protein as well.

IMO 30% of your calories should come from protein (at a minimum).

9

Great username! First off, you are NOT weak. You’ve got more strength trapped inside your nervous system then you could ever know what to do with. This isn’t new age mumbling, but fact. Believe it and the rest will begin to fall into place.

As for the nutrition, you’ll most likely have to experiment to find out what works for you. The best you can get from other people is what works for them. I for instance like a bit of water before, during, and after workouts, but not a lot. I drink some tea about a 1/2 hour before working out. This always felt good and then I found at that, supposedly, a little caffeine before a workout helps you concentrate and access fat stores a little more readily. I also like to eat a bit of carbs after a workout. Mostly in fruit form. Personally, I have trouble with cramping so I’m sensitive about my potassium intake, bananas and beans take care of it. Again, these are all things that I found worked for me. Be flexible. Mileage may vary.

As to the actual training. If you’ve got a program you like, by all means stick to it, but like nutrition, don’t be a slave to someone else’s program. Learn what works for you. There’s lots of good info out there, but unless your intention is to add muscle mass(I can’t imagine why for an endurance athlete), stay away from the bodybuilding stuff. Pure strength training is mostly about training the nervous system and you don’t necessarily need to gain weight to get stronger though it will often happen once you start training. The manner in which you train will have a huge effect on your recovery needs. Long, bodybuilding-style workouts will put a lot of stress on your body, increase your recovery times, and probably require you to be really attentive to nutrition and supplements. Short, intense strength training sessions will require much less attention to recovery and leave you feeling fresh enough to do your other workouts.

I’ve mentioned him before, but Pavel Tsatsouline has distilled a lot of useful strength training informatio in his books and videos, see Dragondoor.com. Another, almost encyclopedic tomb is ‘The Science of Sports Training’ (Stadion.com).

Good luck and have fun.

–ashayk

10

have you read Dave Scott’s book? don’t take my word for it, read what he says.

11

I apologize for the “tone” of my response. I have read bits and pieces of his book but can’t say that I finished it…you got me! However, even in his Accelerade adds in Triathlete magazine that we all see everyone month he mentions the importance of Protein. My point is that protein is a very important macronutrient and should be increased with the type of lifestyle an endurance athlete leads.

12

No offense taken and no debate that the body needs protein–the question is: how much? Look around at us fat Americans (the fattest on earth)–we are killing ourselves by over consuming EVERYthing.

About Dave Scott: you said it all–accelerade ADS (ADVERTISEMENTS). Read the section on nutrition in his classic book and you get a different picture.

The problem is that many of us get our nutritional knowledge, not from unbiased writing in decent books (NOT weight loss books), but from unadulterated advertising. In any case, I don’t think accelerade is a bodybuilding supplement.

From what I have read (and I have read quite a bit in this area), unless one is a bodybuilder wanting to gain 50 lbs of muscle in a few months, the idea that one (such as a triathlete) needs to highly supplement a HEALTHY diet with lots more protein is goofy (but the desire sure makes a lot of money for supplement makers).

If you want to get reasoned voice about all this nutrition stuff, read a little by Andrew Weil. He explains it well and he ain’t selling you anything (get a book from the library).

13

I agree that Americans are FAT as a general rule. I also agree that most people will subscribe to any fad that is hyped enough which is why they stay FAT! But I don’t think protein is hype.

I too read a lot and am very meticulus about my nutrition. That said I see that protein and the amount that an individual should consume is now becoming a popular debate (as it should be). At one time carbs where the only thing, “people need the energy they don’t want to get big”. That is ridiculus. Ask a body builder just how hard it is to gain lean mass, not weight, but lean mass. If they can gain 10lbs of lean mass in a year that is pretty amazing. Plus they are training like body builders. So the worry about gaining a lot of muscle when we train as endurance athletes just because you consume more protein is a myth.

I’m with you on determining how much is enough for each individual and do appreciate the book reference. I will definitely check it out.

14

It has been shown definitively that endurance athletes and strength athletes need more protein than sedentary individuals. However, just eating more of what you normally eat should take care of it without intentionally adding more protein. Besides, carbohydrates spare protein. If you are eating enough carbs, your protein needs will be low. If you want to add a bit though, it’s no big deal. You aren’t going to rot your kidneys or anything as long as you are reasonable about the amount. I wouldn’t exceed .5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. If your carb intake is adequate, you can get away with half of that.

Mike P.

15

I like cytosport recovery after hard muscular efforts. It tastes good, helps up my protein numbers a bit, and (whether it’s purely mental or not) makes me feel better for the next workout. At $1/serving it’s worth a shot.

Meg.

16

it seems like one can get deep discussion on what type of cranks here, or seat angle, is this stuff really gonna make as much a difference as building the best nutrition and body plan possable…you mention how suplements are hype…and i don’t know any better to disagree…but it seems to me that an obsession on bike materials is hype compared to finding the best foods to eat…give a pro a 1980 schwinn with 7 gears and they’ll still win because they are in amazing condition…

Yes I agree it is strange the amount of discussion on some topics. I see it this way: this forum is just like one large pub/bar with lots of people hanging around talking s*^t. Now you wouldn’t talk crap in a bar with someone and seriously go home and act on the advice that you were given. You would perhaps try and verify the advice. Of course some folks in this bar may post references for verification, which is helpful. But on the whole I think it would be foolish to act on the advice given in this forum without some concrete independent evidence.

That said here is my take on the nutrition topic mentioned:

“…only in the elite athlete (who is training very hard every day) is there a significant impact on dietary protein requirements, with a maximal requirement of ~1.6g/kg/d. …A dietary protein intake that represents 15% of total energy intake with an energy-sufficient diet should cover the requirements for nearly all endurance athletes. Given the increase in energy intake by most athletes, there is no need to use protein supplements to attain these levels.” From Burke, L & Deakin, V. 2000. Clinical Sports Nutrition 2nd Ed. McGraw-Hill Companies. (Page 112)

Now that seems pretty simple to me. The problems with excessive protein intake as stated by other folks here are spelled out in the book as well. Actually they say that excessive protein intake is more of a problem then deficiency.

My personal rule is never follow a diet plan with a name. If its named after somebody or something like “magic diet” or “Bob’s diet” or “The prim evil diet” I think you can assure yourself that it is a load of crap - as I’ve yet to find a diet with a special name that isn’t. I’ve done the research for myself - and would expect that anyone else would do the same. Of course the simple method is to buy a book like clinical sports nutrition - they talk facts not fads. Some diet plans are not bad - just not good, but others are downright dangerous for long-term health - even if athletes manage to perform on them for a few years.

I am amazed at what some athletes/folks around these type boards claim they are shovelling into their mouths and at some of the advice given - but hey I don’t listen to their s*^t, and it’s their body, health and performance.

I’ve read two other articles that found oranges to be one of the best immediate post-workout meals as they replenish fluid, energy, and reduce catabolism. Red capsicums (peppers) are similar minus the energy. That seems sensible to me. I will try and track down the articles if I’ve still got them.

But my real question is what the hell are you doing in the gym anyway? - I’m sure you’ll get lots of folks say how essential it is - once again the evidence isn’t there sparing the injury prevention essentials - but you don’t need a gym or weights for those exercises.

Some people perform because of what they do; some people perform despite what they do!!!

17

What a great topic. I’ve been looking into maximizing my workouts lately as well. You no doubt have even more doubts after many of the post here. Some are based in fact, others fiction and hard to determine which ones are which. There is no one program for every body, but at least you can start somewhere and go from there. I’ll try to stay true to your original request of maximizing your time in the gym.

I’ve found some good links that you should read and find something you can believe. Champion Nutrition http://www.champion-nutrition.com/ has gone to some length to address our (yours and mine) situation. Be sure to search this site well and be sure to check out their Endurance System. Also, do look at the body builder section. You may not want to be huge, but you can surely apply some of the concepts.

Hammer Nutrition has some great products and info as well. Go to http://www.e-caps.com/.

Also, Canine (yes, dog) muscle physiology can be a ‘guide’ for humans as well. Sometimes we do more for our animals than we do for ourselves. Here’s some great articles that can be translated and applied to humans http://k9power.com/fahey_insulin.htm, http://k9power.com/newsupp.htm.

And for those people who think protein for an endurance athlete is overrated, Hammer Nutrition sent me a flyer for their Hammer Pro Whey and Soy protein powders and went into great depth as to why a body needs protein. Their formula for an endurance athlete is: 1.)Take your weight in pounds. 2.) Divide that number by 2.2 (this is your weight in kilos). 3.) Multiply by 1.4 - 1.7. This number represents an endurance athlete needs each and every day. The low figure (1.4) is for easy workouts and days off. 1.7 is for peak training periods. Simple.

18

Yep, you’re wrong.

“People (and even some ill-informed doctors) often confuse ketosis, which is a perfectly normal metabolic process, with ketoacidosis, which is a life-threatening condition.” http://atkins.com/helpatkins/faqs/faqWhatisketosis.html

“There are no studies showing that Atkins causes kidney or liver problems in healthy individuals. There are research trials that looked at liver and kidney and heart function, with participants on ketogenic diets similar to the Atkins approach in which no negative effects were observed. Also, when we did a follow-up of more than a year on patients at Dr. Atkins’ medical practice, including checking their kidney and liver functions, there was no adverse effect. Of course patients in kidney failure are extremely restricted in everything they consume, including water, so Atkins would not be appropriate for them.” http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/13-162534.html

19

I am no expert either. Andrew Weil is biased. He writes to sell books AND nutritional suppliments. BUT, he also knows alot and his bias can be explained. He’s a good guy, just not the only one with quality information.

20

I’ve suscribed to a diet called Atkins. Is it a fad? I don’t think so. The concept has been around a long time. Dr. Atkins just stood up and took the s#*t for it. I have lost fat on my controlled carb plan and have kept it off for six months. Not hype, just a different way of doing things.