Strength goals - Training Bible?

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m relatively new to strength training and I’ve been making the fun gains of a beginner. However, I looked up strength training in the Triathlete’s Training Bible and things look pretty bad. For example, the load goal for squat is 6 reps at 1.3-1.7 X Body Weight.

So for me, I’m looking at 180 lbs body weight I should be shooting for 6 squats at 234 lbs - 306 lbs.

I’m currently doing 3 sets of 6 Squats at 180 lbs. Getting even to the lowest goal is going to be very tough.

How do you guys compare to these strength standards?Are these numbers important to triathlon success? Edit with more info:
Cycling is my weakest sport.I’m at 10% body fat, this is temporary and I’ll be back to 8% in a few months.I’m currently hitting the weights very hard, I push as hard as I can but stop right at the point where it is stopping me from completing my tri workouts.

2

How do you guys compare to these strength standards?

I can do those numbers, with 3-6 months dedicated strength training.

Are these numbers important?

These numbers are not important.

3

I think Dylan Johnson’s take is pretty good on this subject. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U11QNOq0npg

He suggests to start with as many as 20 reps per set so you don’t injure yourself, then drop some reps while increasing weight slowly till you’ve built good form and confidence to hit the ~5 rep range without injury.

I’m 185lbs, and found that my newb’gains came fast. I started with 5 sets of 10x 135 for the first 3 sessions and made sure I wasn’t sore from bad form. Then I felt confident enough for 10x 185 for about a week before trying 10x 225.

For me it was mostly about building awareness and confidence with higher loads and nobody checking my form at first.

My personal experience has been very positive. I’ve replaced about 1/3rd ~4 hrs/week of running and cycling volume for weight room training but I have been getting 1-2 minute power PRs on bike and my runs are improving as well.

4

I’m going to assume they mean full atg style squat and not just to (or slightly above parallel). I’m also going to assume your not juiced up on testosterone like one certain bodybuilder turned endurance athlete youtuber.

6 reps at 1.7xbw scales up to around 2xBW 1 rep max. That’s a pretty serious squat. Way past the point of what is necessary for triathlon performance and way past what is necessary for health/longevity. Back when I was focused primarily on strength I had better numbers (around 2.2xbw high bar full depth back squat and around 2xbw full depth front squat). But I was lifting 5x per week and doing minimum cardio. I think for the average person trying to reach that number while also training for triathlon is pretty unrealistic.

6 reps at 235lbs scales up to a 1.5xBW 1 rep max. Still way past the point of what is necessary for triathlon performance. On the high end of what’s good for health/longevity (I mean more quad strength is always good, but definitely into diminishing returns). It’s more realistic, but still going to take a while and need some serious training.

I suspect there is little correlation between squat strength and endurance performance. If anything there’s probably a negative correlation - I can’t see kipchoge knocking out a 2xBW squat and none of the Olympic weightlifters are running a decent marathon! A certain minimum will possibly aid performance and maybe decrease risk of injury. After that you are just “wasting time” (parentheses as increasing strength is good for health and longevity), that would likely be better off doing Tri specific training if that’s your primary goal.

He suggests to start with as many as 20 reps per set so you don’t injure yourself, then drop some reps while increasing weight slowly till you’ve built good form and confidence to hit the ~5 rep range without injury.

I love Dylan, but I’m not sure about this advice. Sure you are less likely to injure yourself with lighter weights, but there’s no reason lighter weights means you will develop good form. In fact for some athletes with tight quads a bit of weight on the bar can make hitting depth easier. Best option is to get a good coach, they should be able to teach you how to deadlift and squat pretty quickly, to perform them at a decent level where you shouldn’t get injured is not overly complex.

As for confidence it is huge, but imo it comes with practice lifting heavy weights not doing loads of reps with light weights. I have seen people that have poor 1 rep maxes in relation to their 5 or 6 rep max as they go to pieces with the heavier weight, they already know when they unrack it it’s not coming back up. I ran a Bulgarian style program for a few weeks where I was max squatting most days and you just get desensitized to it, I’m not sure it’s confidence per se, but you become weirdly comfortable with the feeling of a heavy weight.

5

From Nils Van Der Pools training bible:

“do not drop hours from the essential sessions in order to perform something that sounds cool or is easy. Yeah, the gym is warm and nice, mirrors everywhere so that you can see your pretty face and attractive muscles. But you’re more likely 50 watts off the required bike threshold to make it below 12.00,00, than you are 50kg in squats from it.”

“The monotonous program however came with a prize. In one years time I dropped 25% in explosiveness and similar numbers in maximum squats. There’s multiple conclusions to draw from this of course. One is that nothing is achieved without a sacrifice and another one would be that it doesn’t require that much strength nor explosiveness to skate 25 laps of 30,0”.”

Just to be clear: this is speed skating, which requires a lot more strength than triathlon, and NVDP set a world record during the Olympics. You dont need to get stronger to become a good triathlete.

6

If that’s a full depth squat, those numbers are on the very high end. The author is correct, but that doesn’t mean you should try to get there in a year. Expecting more than 10% strength gains year on year is a recipe for disaster, once you’re outside of year 1, as a triathlete. Sure, it can happen, but let it happen, rather than pushing for it and expecting it.

For you if 190 pounds is your 6RM, based on 3x6 at 180 lbs, this might be a reasonable annual progression in best squat performances:
2022: 190
2023: 210
2024: 230
2025: 245

Recommendations:
Use a program that has progressive overload from week to week and implements regular deload weeks.Lift the weights you’re capable of lifting now. Soon those numbers will be higher. Soon is a relative term. :slight_smile: Leave 1-4 reps in the tank on most sets, most days. Training to failure regularly will lead to plateau and injury.Vary weights used, regularly. Opt for 10-20% lighter than you think, more often than you think.Occasionally push very hard. Maybe once a month approach muscular failure.Wear weightlifting shoes with at least a 0.75" heel if you plan to be squatting full depth. Higher heel is just fine. The heel at least gives you a chance to remain somewhat upright and prevent spinal flexion in the depths of the squat. Keep in mind that endurance athletes tend to have tighter than normal hips and ankles, on average, and that squatting full depth requires good positioning lest you risk injury.
Direct answers to your questions:
I can safely squat 1.7x body weight full depth, but that’s because I used to be able to squat 2.25x body weight full depth. I haven’t weight trained in 5 years because of that strength reserve.Those numbers are less important than many things for triathlon success, but can help for sure, especially if you’ve already exhausted most of your newbie gains on the endurance training side of things.

7

From Nils Van Der Pools training bible:

“do not drop hours from the essential sessions in order to perform something that sounds cool or is easy. Yeah, the gym is warm and nice, mirrors everywhere so that you can see your pretty face and attractive muscles. But you’re more likely 50 watts off the required bike threshold to make it below 12.00,00, than you are 50kg in squats from it.”

“The monotonous program however came with a prize. In one years time I dropped 25% in explosiveness and similar numbers in maximum squats. There’s multiple conclusions to draw from this of course. One is that nothing is achieved without a sacrifice and another one would be that it doesn’t require that much strength nor explosiveness to skate 25 laps of 30,0”.”

Just to be clear: this is speed skating, which requires a lot more strength than triathlon, and NVDP set a world record during the Olympics. You dont need to get stronger to become a good triathlete.

This is a great point.

To OP: Triathlon is an aerobic sport. Humongous aerobic training volumes are critical. Don’t let lifting take away from that.

To @AS88: do you happen to recall what NVDP’s strength numbers were like before this season where strength numbers were traded for huge volumes of endurance training? I reviewed his report a while back but I don’t remember.

8

He suggests to start with as many as 20 reps per set so you don’t injure yourself, then drop some reps while increasing weight slowly till you’ve built good form and confidence to hit the ~5 rep range without injury.
This is not necessary and has some tradeoffs worth considering. 20 reps builds more fatigue than 2x10 which builds more fatigue than 3x7 which builds more fatigue than 4x5, if all at same load.

It’s better to break up sets into smaller chunks for skill acquisition.

It’s better to break up sets into smaller chunks for fatigue management and injury prevention.

There is no reason to ever go higher than 10 reps, and one could argue even 8 reps, for endurance folks.

Higher rep counts per set = higher metabolite accumulation and working closer to failure at higher rep counts also drives greater hypertrophy, neither of which are ideal for endurance sport athletes.

All the same skill acquisition can be gained with higher number of sets of lower reps, with the same very low loads that’d be used in a 20-rep set.

I’m 185lbs, and found that my newb’gains came fast. I started with 5 sets of 10x 135 for the first 3 sessions and made sure I wasn’t sore from bad form. Then I felt confident enough for 10x 185 for about a week before trying 10x 225.

For me it was mostly about building awareness and confidence with higher loads and nobody checking my form at first. Glad to see you intuitively implemented a better approach than the 20-rep approach. Our personal intuition is pretty smart sometimes. :slight_smile:

My personal experience has been very positive. I’ve replaced about 1/3rd ~4 hrs/week of running and cycling volume for weight room training but I have been getting 1-2 minute power PRs on bike and my runs are improving as well. This is a very common experience. I’d expect that there will be a progressively more delayed positive effect on progressively longer power domains, especially once you’ve exhausted all newbie gains in the weight room and transition back to a slightly higher emphasis on long-duration power.

Much of the movement economy gains, and resultant endurance performance enhancement from lifting happen with very limited lifting emphasis and happen early on alongside the newbie gains in the gym. Motor unit coordination is a beautiful thing! (result of lifting) So, while lifting big numbers is not mission critical for endurance performance, it absolutely can lay the groundwork for improved endurance sport performance, especially for a person with low training age in lifting.

9

What are your goals? Do you want to be improve triathlon performance? Or do you want to be physically stronger for life and general health?

For triathlon performance my advice is to not spend too much time on weight training, 1 hour per week is enough. Weight training has benefits but it won’t be a game changer for triathlon performance.

Here is my weight training approach. 1-2 days per week, alternating between these two sessions, on a hard day after an interval ride or run. By doing these two days you are getting a balanced approach with horizontal and vertical pushing and pulling, lower body hip and knee focused exercise, single leg and arm focused exercises specific to triathlon.

Day 1: push focus.
-Hex-bar or squat. 3x5
-Bench press DB’s or pushups. 3x5-8
-Rear foot elevated split squat or lunges. 3x5-8 each side
-Overhead press dumbells. 3x5
-Front plank 3x30 sec

Day 2: pull focus.
-Single leg RDL 3x5-8 each side
-Pull ups. 3x5
-Hamstring curls on stability ball or leg curls slides in socks. 3x8
-Dumbbell row single arm. 3x5 each side
-Side plank. 3x20" each side

10

From Nils Van Der Pools training bible:

“do not drop hours from the essential sessions in order to perform something that sounds cool or is easy. Yeah, the gym is warm and nice, mirrors everywhere so that you can see your pretty face and attractive muscles. But you’re more likely 50 watts off the required bike threshold to make it below 12.00,00, than you are 50kg in squats from it.”

“The monotonous program however came with a prize. In one years time I dropped 25% in explosiveness and similar numbers in maximum squats. There’s multiple conclusions to draw from this of course. One is that nothing is achieved without a sacrifice and another one would be that it doesn’t require that much strength nor explosiveness to skate 25 laps of 30,0”.”

Just to be clear: this is speed skating, which requires a lot more strength than triathlon, and NVDP set a world record during the Olympics. You dont need to get stronger to become a good triathlete.

This is a great point.

To OP: Triathlon is an aerobic sport. Humongous aerobic training volumes are critical. Don’t let lifting take away from that.

To @AS88: do you happen to recall what NVDP’s strength numbers were like before this season where strength numbers were traded for huge volumes of endurance training? I reviewed his report a while back but I don’t remember.

“As I came back to my speed skating oriented training in May 2019 I had just left the army. I was like any other serving private at the moment. I was decent in the gym squatting 125kg, I could run 10km in 40 minutes and I did plenty of core training. That changed as I once more turned my attention towards the ice rink. Instead of training to stay healthy, fit or athletic, I started training to become a speed skater.”

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results :slight_smile:

11

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results :slight_smile: It certainly would be for a sprinter speed skater! But for long stuff the forces needed are clearly much much lower.

I’d posit that need for strength drops off to a greater extent in speed skating than in running, as you move from sprinter to endurance athlete. There is absolutely a strength requirement decrease in running too, but probably more in skating because there is much lower rate of force development needed.

12

Weightlifting shoes (proper Olympic weightlifting ones not CrossFit style hybrid ones) is a great suggestion. The raised heel definitely helps with the biomechanics, and can compensate for flexibility issues. Also you are getting a more stable base and better force transfer - that cushioning in running trainers is great for absorbing forces during running but exactly what you don’t want while squatting.

If you dont want to drop money on weightlifting shoes (they are pricey but last forever) you can get something with no cushioning (e.g. chuck Taylor converse) and use the little 2.5kg plates to put under your heels.

For beginners learning the movement I usually suggest front squat over back squat. The positioning of the bar in the front squat means that excessive rounding of the back results in the bar getting dropped forwards, whereas in the back squat you can get away with it more (and even use it to lift more weight), which is arguably the biggest risk for injury.

13

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results :slight_smile: It certainly would be for a sprinter speed skater! But for long stuff the forces needed are clearly much much lower.

I’d posit that need for strength drops off to a greater extent in speed skating than in running, as you move from sprinter to endurance athlete. There is absolutely a strength requirement decrease in running too, but probably more in skating because there is much lower rate of force development needed.

Hmm. Running is essentially a series of jumps, which makes p/w important, that is true. But why isn’t the same true for speed skating? And in the curves, the velocity vector changes at all times, making it reasonable to believe that the force needed to accelerate the skater is more than negligible.

Haven’t spent a lot of time reflecting on this, but I have spent quite some time on skates in my day and my experience was always that p/w was way more important there than in running.

14

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results

The problem with squat numbers is that a lot of people’s are overinflated due to not squatting to parallel, let alone full depth. A full depth 1.5x BW squat is pretty rare, definitely not something you normally see outside powerlifters, Olympic weightlifters, and those involved in explosive sports (e.g. track and field). Certainly not common for the “average Joe” in the gym. I used to use the same gym as some of the GB rowing juniors (18-20 year olds) and none of them were close to 1.5x BW.

Also we do need to acknowledge lever lengths. While it shouldn’t be an excuse - you can certainly develop a decent amount of strength regardless, it is an advantage/disadvantage. You are never going to squat like Idalberto Arranda without disproportionately short femurs.

15

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results :slight_smile: It certainly would be for a sprinter speed skater! But for long stuff the forces needed are clearly much much lower.

I’d posit that need for strength drops off to a greater extent in speed skating than in running, as you move from sprinter to endurance athlete. There is absolutely a strength requirement decrease in running too, but probably more in skating because there is much lower rate of force development needed.

Hmm. Running is essentially a series of jumps, which makes p/w important, that is true. But why isn’t the same true for speed skating? And in the curves, the velocity vector changes at all times, making it reasonable to believe that the force needed to accelerate the skater is more than negligible.

Haven’t spent a lot of time reflecting on this, but I have spent quite some time on skates in my day and my experience was always that p/w was way more important there than in running.
Reason it may be less true for speed skating than in long-distance running: peak vertical ground reaction forces are higher in running, as are undoubtedly peak rates of force development. The impact downwards with almost immediate rebound creates these higher forces.

That said, a good counterargument to my initial proposed hypothesis might be that because skating allows for lower use of the stretch shortening cycle’s force production, that greater non-SSC-mediated forces (and thus, greater squat strength) are required.

Very talented runners essentially bounce along on their tendons using very little muscular input to great very high GRF’s and RFD’s.

The reason I make above counterargument to my original suggestion is because that intelligent and rational people’s intuition is often very telling with regard to biomechanics and merits further thought. Your intuition that power to weight ratio “feels” more important in skating than in running is worth considering!

Also haven’t reflected much on this. Just thinking aloud!

16

Agreed!

I’d posit there is a such a general lack of strength, and intelligent strength training, so pervasive in many sports that it sort of sets our perception a bit low for what is actually optimal, versus what is good enough to go win a national championship or Olympic medal.

17

“As I came back to my speed skating oriented training in May 2019 I had just left the army. I was like any other serving private at the moment. I was decent in the gym squatting 125kg, I could run 10km in 40 minutes and I did plenty of core training. That changed as I once more turned my attention towards the ice rink. Instead of training to stay healthy, fit or athletic, I started training to become a speed skater.”

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results :slight_smile:

but perhaps this previous weight lifting base helped when he specialized more into skating.

many top sprint cycling athletes can squat a lot…

https://youtu.be/aOImvJOaGiY

as for runners, squat has less correlation to performance, but there is correlation with the deadlift. for instance jordan hasay, meb keflezighi can do 2x their body weight

now im wondering for myself… to hit big watts for my bike time goals… i think I need to gain body weight. Last ftp 266, Need 280 to hit my 40k TT goal

18

“As I came back to my speed skating oriented training in May 2019 I had just left the army. I was like any other serving private at the moment. I was decent in the gym squatting 125kg, I could run 10km in 40 minutes and I did plenty of core training. That changed as I once more turned my attention towards the ice rink. Instead of training to stay healthy, fit or athletic, I started training to become a speed skater.”

I think 125kg sounds low for any skater north of 80kg. But it is hard to argue with his results :slight_smile:

but perhaps this previous weight lifting base helped when he specialized more into skating.

many top sprint cycling athletes can squat a lot…

https://youtu.be/aOImvJOaGiY

as for runners, squat has less correlation to performance, but there is correlation with the deadlift. for instance jordan hasay, meb keflezighi can do 2x their body weight

now im wondering for myself… to hit big watts for my bike time goals… i think I need to gain body weight. Last ftp 266, Need 280 to hit my 40k TT goal

Those track cyclists are specialising in an event that lasts less than around 45secs, or considerably less if you are one of the leadout guys. NvdP is speedskating 5km in 6min+ and 10km in 12min30secs+. It’s not even a comparison. Of course athletes in short events where performance is dictated by power and max strength are going to squat a lot, and considerably more than an endurance athlete competing in much longer duration events.

You dont need huge muscles* for an 280 FTP, look at all the 65kg pro cyclists. You do need them for hitting 25 watts per kg like the top track cyclists. Honestly, they may as well be two completely different sports - nobody would try to compare bolt and kipchoge.

  • A lot of strength gains are neuromuscular rather than increase in muscle CSA. The idea that magazines and supplement companies sell about “putting on pounds of muscle” is a complete myth. Unless you are taking PEDs muscle growth is very slow. So a bettr option is to focus on strength rather than weight.
19
  • I have found that a tech race shirt functions fairly well as an Invisibility Cloak when I’m in the weight lifting area
  • I don’t keep a log & I don’t have a plan - If I can’t remember when the last time I went up in weight was, I’m probably due
  • Until the last year or so, the only core work I did was skateboarding and riding my bike no-handed
  • When your body craves squats, you’re almost there

If you don’t want to drop money on weightlifting shoes (they are pricey but last forever) you can get something with no cushioning (e.g. chuck Taylor converse) and use the little 2.5kg plates to put under your heels.

I’m a VANS guy - A Punk who no longer wears Chucks because Converse is a NIKE Brand is a rare thing indeed

Also we do need to acknowledge lever lengths. While it shouldn’t be an excuse - you can certainly develop a decent amount of strength regardless, it is an advantage/disadvantage.

Repeating this one, yet again … it’s been a while and some may not know it

I was far out of my element, on unfamiliar and slightly scary ground: the Strength Training area. Two stereotypical muscleheads in spaghetti strap wife-beaters, baggy b-ball shorts with nu-tech weight-belts were doing the Sausage Contest Pre-Game One-Upmanship Dance around the Leg-Press machine.

While Skinny Little Triathlete Boy was taking his turn, they looked over, dumbfounded by how much his Short-Lever Thunder-Thigh Biker Legs could push.

“What do you Squat?” El Bulko #1 asked.

“I dunno? 5? 515? Depends on when I get home from work. About 10 minutes after that”

Ba-dum-DUM!!!

I threw my towel over my shoulder and strutted away like I was their New Hero

20

Those track cyclists are specialising in an event that lasts less than around 45secs, or considerably less if you are one of the leadout guys. NvdP is speedskating 5km in 6min+ and 10km in 12min30secs+. It’s not even a comparison. Of course athletes in short events where performance is dictated by power and max strength are going to squat a lot, and considerably more than an endurance athlete competing in much longer duration events.

You dont need huge muscles* for an 280 FTP, look at all the 65kg pro cyclists. You do need them for hitting 25 watts per kg like the top track cyclists. Honestly, they may as well be two completely different sports - nobody would try to compare bolt and kipchoge.

  • A lot of strength gains are neuromuscular rather than increase in muscle CSA. The idea that magazines and supplement companies sell about “putting on pounds of muscle” is a complete myth. Unless you are taking PEDs muscle growth is very slow. So a bettr option is to focus on strength rather than weight.

more background… i emaciated myself too much worrying about power/weight ratios and what not, deteriorating my cns , dropping my weight too low leading to injuries. need to rebuild that lost precious muscle.