Stage 17/18 Tactics (Spoiler)

Triathlon Forum
1

Looking at the final times on stage 18 ITT, I can’t help but wonder if Contador wasn’t also being the consumate teammate in attacking Kloden on stage 17. If he doesn’t drop Kloden, it seems clear that Kloden would have ended up 3rd based on his TT today, AHEAD of Lance Armstrong. By dropping Kloden, Armstrong was set-up for what appears to now be a third place finish. So, perhaps Contador was not riding for himself.

Sorry if this has been brought up. There are so many threads, it’s tough to wade through everything.

2

Funny. A little bit too much foresight, huh?

It’s gonna be savage tomorrow btw Armstrong and Schleck I.
Kloden will sit ife he aims to get a slot on LA’s team.

3

Looking at the final times on stage 18 ITT, I can’t help but wonder if Contador wasn’t also being the consumate teammate in attacking Kloden on stage 17. If he doesn’t drop Kloden, it seems clear that Kloden would have ended up 3rd based on his TT today, AHEAD of Lance Armstrong. By dropping Kloden, Armstrong was set-up for what appears to now be a third place finish. So, perhaps Contador was not riding for himself.

Sorry if this has been brought up. There are so many threads, it’s tough to wade through everything.

Oh please…you’re reaching.

Either that, or you’re just trolling… :wink:

4

Funny. A little bit too much foresight, huh?

It’s gonna be savage tomorrow btw Armstrong and Schleck I.
Kloden will sit ife he aims to get a slot on LA’s team.

I think you mean on Saturday…if they start going at it tomorrow, it might be a bit premature :wink:

5

Looking at the final times on stage 18 ITT, I can’t help but wonder if Contador wasn’t also being the consumate teammate in attacking Kloden on stage 17. If he doesn’t drop Kloden, it seems clear that Kloden would have ended up 3rd based on his TT today, AHEAD of Lance Armstrong. By dropping Kloden, Armstrong was set-up for what appears to now be a third place finish. So, perhaps Contador was not riding for himself.

Sorry if this has been brought up. There are so many threads, it’s tough to wade through everything.
well, whatever his motivations, his actions helped Armstrong–and probably cost them the stage win. It seems so many people are so emotionally invested in the pro-Armstrong or anti-Contador camp that they’re unable to look at it objectively. I don’t care much for any of those guys, so I don’t have that problem!

Somehow people seem to think that Contador dragged the Schlecks to a 2 minute gap, which is ridiculous. One of them would have attacked anyway, Contador would have bridged and the other Schleck would have sat on until the other bridged–and the result would have been about the same. Kloden was about to crack–the fact that he lost 2 minute in 1.5K should make that pretty clear.

If people want to blame someone on Astana for not getting a podium sweep, maybe they should blame Levi’s bike handling skills?

6

I dunno. Reminds me of Barrichello being forced to let Schumacher pass him for the victory a few years back. You think a 3rd place for Armstrong instead of Kloden isn’t worth a significant amount of money, publicity, etc. for the team? If Kloden doesn’t get dropped, he’s in 2nd (I think) after today. Lance is far too cunning for me to ever feel like you are ever reaching when it comes to him.

7

Totally agree with that. Levi would have been the obvious person to finish in 2nd. Then Kloden is available to stay with Armstrong and helps keep him from losing so much time to the Schlecks. But I think faced with the choice of Kloden on the podium vs. Lance on the podium, I think it’s obvious what Astana would want.

8

Looking at the final times on stage 18 ITT, I can’t help but wonder if Contador wasn’t also being the consumate teammate in attacking Kloden on stage 17. If he doesn’t drop Kloden, it seems clear that Kloden would have ended up 3rd based on his TT today, AHEAD of Lance Armstrong. By dropping Kloden, Armstrong was set-up for what appears to now be a third place finish. So, perhaps Contador was not riding for himself.

Sorry if this has been brought up. There are so many threads, it’s tough to wade through everything.
well, whatever his motivations, his actions helped Armstrong–and probably cost them the stage win. It seems so many people are so emotionally invested in the pro-Armstrong or anti-Contador camp that they’re unable to look at it objectively. I don’t care much for any of those guys, so I don’t have that problem!

Somehow people seem to think that Contador dragged the Schlecks to a 2 minute gap, which is ridiculous. One of them would have attacked anyway, Contador would have bridged and the other Schleck would have sat on until the other bridged–and the result would have been about the same. Kloden was about to crack–the fact that he lost 2 minute in 1.5K should make that pretty clear.

If people want to blame someone on Astana for not getting a podium sweep, maybe they should blame Levi’s bike handling skills?
The same can be said for the anti-LA crowd.

9

It seems so many people are so emotionally invested in the pro-Armstrong or anti-Contador camp that they’re unable to look at it objectively. I don’t care much for any of those guys, so I don’t have that problem!

It’s seems to me that damn near every single poster first likes to observe how everyone else is emotionally invested in this situation but then remind us that, of course, they don’t care one way or the other.

10

It seems so many people are so emotionally invested in the pro-Armstrong or anti-Contador camp that they’re unable to look at it objectively. I don’t care much for any of those guys, so I don’t have that problem!

It’s seems to me that damn near every single poster first likes to observe how everyone else is emotionally invested in this situation but then remind us that, of course, they don’t care one way or the other.
have you actually read some of the comments? I really haven’t seen anyone else say “I’m being objective”, or make much of an attempt to be so. People are delusional, seriously. Here, I’ll give you my take on the TDF in a nutshell:

-Lance gains 40 seconds in a split. Alberto was stupid to miss it. There were no other contenders there. Astana rightly drives the pace. People whine…

-Contador attacks on Arcalis, he’s clearly the strongest–puts time into everyone. People whine…

-Astana and Slipstream make some questionable choices, resulting in Hincapie not getting yellow. Bob Stapleton wins the ‘Biggest Whiner Award’ (not easy in this race) Matt White gets the ‘wft were you thinking’ award

-Cavendish goes to the press to challenge Stapleton for the whining award

-Cadel does what he does best and folds like a lawn chair

-some random dude gets 5th in a stage and Thor H whines because he’s ‘supposed to get the points’. whhaaaaa… you lost the sprint!? (he makes up for it a little bit in his interview though, admiting to being a whiner, so props to him).

-Contador slaughters the field on Verbier. People whine about that, too. I’m not really sure why. I go to analytic cycling and am very perplexed…but still impressed

-Contador makes a pretty big blunder on the Columbier. People take this to mean he’s the world’s worst teammate and ‘out for himself’–the height of comedy since, well…anyone winning the TDF is, well, out for himself. His teammates (including those who aren’t even in the race anymore due to their own mistakes) immediately demonstrate why Contador doesn’t trust his teammates by badmouthing him on their twitter accounts and post-race interviews.

-somewhere in there, Heinrich Haussler is a total badass and for once, doesn’t get second place. (I can’t hate on everyone, after all).

-Nibali shows if they raced down Ventoux, he may win the Tour

-Contador shows that yes, he is the world’s best TT rider right now

-Armstrong shows he has a realistic chance of winning the Tour next year

-Ingatiav has a curiously strong ride

I really don’t care for any of the guys in the top six besides Wiggins, so I really do feel I can be pretty objective. I really thought that Lance would win the Tour after Contador broke his scaphoid. It turned out to be Levi’s turn (I shoulda guess that) and Armstrong wasn’t quite as good as I thougth he’d be. In the end, I think he had too much weight to lose and got it off too quickly. The toughest tour of his 7 wins was the one where he was the biggest in the off-season. He won’t make that mistake next year, and he has a solid year of training/racing under his belt. It looks like next year could actually be an intersting tour (the actual race, not the Tour drama–which is really the only thing that has made this year interesting).

11

one way I look at it, with Contador seperating himself as much (on time) from everyone else, it opens the door to both Lance and Kloden to have free reign on Saturday without really jeopardizing Contador. Contador barring catastophre has the tour wrapped up. But 2nd through 5th are wide open and I would think that Contrador should ride in support of Lance and Kloden while still protecting his position.
If the Schleck brothers surge (which you know they will), all three, LA, AC and Kloden can go with them without appearing to upset the team order.

12

have you actually read some of the comments? I really haven’t seen anyone else say “I’m being objective”, or make much of an attempt to be so. People are delusional, seriously.
I was referring to more than just this thread. And not caring for anyone in the top six does not make you objective.

13

one way I look at it, with Contador seperating himself as much (on time) from everyone else, it opens the door to both Lance and Kloden to have free reign on Saturday without really jeopardizing Contador. Contador barring catastophre has the tour wrapped up. But 2nd through 5th are wide open and I would think that Contrador should ride in support of Lance and Kloden while still protecting his position.
If the Schleck brothers surge (which you know they will), all three, LA, AC and Kloden can go with them without appearing to upset the team order.
If Astana is smart(and AC as well) they should play saturday as a chance to spring LA and AK to get them on the podium. AC should help them and ride wheels unless they both get dropped.

14

-Contador attacks on Arcalis, he’s clearly the strongest–puts time into everyone. People whine… The issue here is that Contador didn’t follow orders. If he had taken the yellow jersey, Astana would have been under pressure to defend it. Given their stable of stars and lack of workhorses, I think he risked the tour with this move. Clearly the strongest rider? Absolutely! Maybe not mature enough to trust his boss (Johan).

-Astana and Slipstream make some questionable choices, resulting in Hincapie not getting yellow. Bob Stapleton wins the ‘Biggest Whiner Award’ (not easy in this race) Matt White gets the ‘wft were you thinking’ award. Bingo! But with one caveat. I don’t think Astana did anything questionable. The gap went up when Astana was on the front. That leads me to believe they were soft-pedalling and supporting the idea of Hincapie in yellow. Given both Johan and Lance’s statements about wanting Hincapie in yellow and their reticence to take yellow earlier, this makes the most sense to me.

I would also add that George should have buried it instead of looking around. Sacrifice the stage and get the jersey. He blew it this time. Too bad, too. I think he’s a great guy who’s done a terrific job over the years.

15

-Ingatiav has a curiously strong ride

But you’re not insinuating anything, I’m sure.

16

-Contador attacks on Arcalis, he’s clearly the strongest–puts time into everyone. People whine… The issue here is that Contador didn’t follow orders. If he had taken the yellow jersey, Astana would have been under pressure to defend it. Given their stable of stars and lack of workhorses, I think he risked the tour with this move. Clearly the strongest rider? Absolutely! Maybe not mature enough to trust his boss (Johan).

I can certainly see that side of it. The other side of it though is that (for many reasons), it’s reasonable for Contador not to be fully trusting of Bruyneel/Armstrong. All of Armstrong’s interviews up to that point indicated that he really was riding for himself, so I think it’s hard to blame Contador for not trusting them

-Astana and Slipstream make some questionable choices, resulting in Hincapie not getting yellow. Bob Stapleton wins the ‘Biggest Whiner Award’ (not easy in this race) Matt White gets the ‘wft were you thinking’ award. Bingo! But with one caveat. **I don’t think Astana did anything questionable. The gap went up when Astana was on the front. That leads me to believe they were soft-pedalling and supporting the idea of Hincapie in yellow. Given both Johan and Lance’s statements about wanting Hincapie in yellow and their reticence to take yellow earlier, this makes the most sense to me. **
well, Hincapie certainly felt like they did, and I’m guessing he got that from teammates who were sitting in the pack. Here’s a pretty interesting take on it:http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95629/michael-barry-on-hincapie-s-five-seconds

I would also add that George should have buried it instead of looking around. Sacrifice the stage and get the jersey. He blew it this time. Too bad, too. I think he’s a great guy who’s done a terrific job over the years.

given the dynamics of that group, I think for once he played it perfectly–it just didn’t work out. That’s my take at least.

17

It seems so many people are so emotionally invested in the pro-Armstrong or anti-Contador camp that they’re unable to look at it objectively. I don’t care much for any of those guys, so I don’t have that problem!

It’s seems to me that damn near every single poster first likes to observe how everyone else is emotionally invested in this situation but then remind us that, of course, they don’t care one way or the other.
snip

-Armstrong shows he has a realistic chance of winning the Tour next year

 I would agree with that assessment, especially when Contador is unlikely to get quite the same support as he got this year when everyone but him and Vino leave Astana this year. Only fly in the ointment is this "Lance is going to do running and triathlon races next year" as part of this team deal. Don't see how you do that and seriously hope to win the tour.