So this came up in the Andean thread, but I thought it deserved it’s own. One notable - some might say glaring - absence from all these bikes featuring integrated everything is frame-integrated hydration. The Ventum does this, but the bottle is still external; it’s just designed to “mesh” with the frame.
Someone posited in the Andean thread that this is because Specialized holds a patent on this. And certainly they are not shy (nor, in my opinion, should they be) about enforcing their patents. And yet this would seem an odd patent because, primarily, the CAT Cheetah has had an integrated bladder for over a decade (maybe longer). And some folks said that Trek also had done this in one-off form for Lance (which I did not know about) prior to Specialized introducing the Fuelselage in the Shiv.
So this came up in the Andean thread, but I thought it deserved it’s own. One notable - some might say glaring - absence from all these bikes featuring integrated everything is frame-integrated hydration. The Ventum does this, but the bottle is still external; it’s just designed to “mesh” with the frame.
Someone posited in the Andean thread that this is because Specialized holds a patent on this. And certainly they are not shy (nor, in my opinion, should they be) about enforcing their patents. And yet this would seem an odd patent because, primarily, the CAT Cheetah has had an integrated bladder for over a decade (maybe longer). And some folks said that Trek also had done this in one-off form for Lance (which I did not know about) prior to Specialized introducing the Fuelselage in the Shiv.
We actually have quite a good patent lawyer on the forum - he’s written for the front page a couple times. I’ve sent him a link to this thread. Hopefully he’ll either reply here or you’ll see an article on the front page shortly.
I’m not involved in the legal field at all, but I seem to remember reading a conversation a couple of years ago that said the main claims in the Specialized patent didn’t revolve around a bladder being inserted into the frame, but the way that the bladder is held and sits in the top tube. That was the area Felt couldn’t make a workable version of without risking a violation.
It is all about the specifics about the claims. Perhaps SBI has some truly novel features vs the cheetah bladder.
The only thing novel about the Specialized bladder is the application of sharp lawyers to ensure a monopoly.
Or, maybe a patent examiner failed in their due diligence … if that is the case, the patent can be challenged and proven worthless, of course.
Well, obviously the patent examiner failed in due diligence. But the patent isn’t worthless since the lawyering up required to overturn it isn’t justified by the modest market advantage gained by including a bladder.
I’ve put bladders in all kinds of stuff, starting close to 20 years ago.
The BikeStream was a system that you had to pump fluid into, as the bladder expanded to hold water. It was supposed to mount behind your seat, but I started feeding it inside of tubes almost immediately. It could expand in any direction, so conforming to tubing wasn’t a major issue for frames like a Cannondale at the time. It did not have a stiffening member I was definitely not the only person playing with ideas like that back in the 90’s.
Starting in 2006 I was using platypus bladders made for backpacking, similar to a Camelback. I’ve mounted them several times in the head tube/down tube of various Softride Rocket TTs. I also tried going down the beam from the back side. That took a lot of work because they left a lot of the vacuum bagging cruft in there. I was never brave enough to try it on my Zipp 2001 in the head tube, but I did use the beam there as well. Not a ton of space though. I’ve fed the same type of bladders down into my Diamond through the cable port but there are some issues with that, and I have not done so with cables in place. I have seen a picture of a monster cutout for Di2 electronics and a bladder, but was not brave enough to chop holes in that section either (underneath the beam’s attachment point)
A spin off from this thread could be; whether or not Shiv owners use the bladder. I remember when the Shiv was new, people posting that it was too much trouble and weren’t bothering with it. Rap, you had a Shiv, did you use the bladder?
Seldom here so maybe Rinny’s bike had been seen already, but there’s this… won Austria this summer in this prototype format…and that’s definitely a frame-based bladder port, with a lil’ hinged refill port, straw port just in front of it.
Seldom here so maybe Rinny’s bike had been seen already, but there’s this… won Austria this summer in this prototype format…and that’s definitely a frame-based bladder port, with a lil’ hinged refill port, straw port just in front of it.
That top appears to be from the profile design BTA bottle. I thought when the IA came out there was originally talk of it having a bladder but then once Specialized caught wind of it the patent was brought into play and shut it down. So the IA has the capability for it, it is just a matter of the athlete to figure out how to implement it, and it looks like that is what Rinny was experimenting with here?
A spin off from this thread could be; whether or not Shiv owners use the bladder. I remember when the Shiv was new, people posting that it was too much trouble and weren’t bothering with it. Rap, you had a Shiv, did you use the bladder?
Only for racing. But I used it every time I raced.
… the IA has the capability for it, it is just a matter of the athlete to figure out how to implement it, and it looks like that is what Rinny was experimenting with here?
This is what I was thinking the other day. Why can’t manufacturers simply make a frame recess that allows a bladder or spares etc to be inserted, should the customer wish to, after purchase. A kind of ‘utility’ space. Would that avoid patent infringement?
I was definitely not the only person playing with ideas like that back in the 90’s.