I’ve known you a long time, and for sure I don’t think you intentionally set out to shame pros. In fact you have been a strong advocate of pro racing since you’ve been able to speak publicly on the topic.
However the article did come off in that way, and as you can see I’m not the only one that felt that. I know you were just trying to highlight the great AG performances, and as they should be. It just seemed that highlight each and every pro “they beat”, was a bit much since we know a lot of those guys and gals just shuffled it in to finish what they started..
@E_DUB, I’ll give you the same benefit of the doubt @monty will, to the full.
Can you ELI5 the implied meaning here? “Cool off”?
Feelings matter. A lot. Especially for the most vulnerable populations that I think we can all do better for.
In all seriousness, @E_DUB, @monty’s vouch for having known your character for a long time carries a lot of weight, and I know the character I’ve seen among leadership here, and I have respected for years, so I’ll grant you the same.
I hope my vociferousness (and regrettably, loquaciousness) is clearly targeting the issues and ideas, and not anyone as a person in particular. On this issue, I do feel like I’ve bitten my tongue on my real feelings, for reference. If I am insufficiently personally respectful throughout, please don’t hesitate to say so directly and I’ll amend as fast as I can.
I wonder if you watch pro ball sports, such as NFL, NBA, etc… and criticize individual players as an arm chair quarter back (which many in these sports do) ? Why cant this be allowed in this sport? Yes, the solution maybe what like lifetime did. pro, elite, amature (get rid of age based year system)
I never participated in this era of LifeTime racing. The two last two races at LifeTime Tempe obviously had no pro field. They had no elite field. They did amateur age groups for regulars and then also Athena’s and Clydesdales. My wife qualified for LifeTime New York Championships after getting second Athena in her age group. I then got hit by a car and never went to the race.
7-figure salaries in MLB/NFL/NBA. It eliminates a huge amount of hardship and sacrifice.
It is easier to be a pro MLB/NFL/NBA player, both statistically and operationally. That is:
A far higher percentage of pro team sport athletes make a living at it.
Training for team sports is easy compared to endurance sports.
Pro MLB, NFL, & NBA players genuinely care less about their sport. A lot less on average, than pros making virtually zero in endurance sport.
I have coached all of them. It’s a genuine job for MLB, NFL, NBA, and they often care as much as ensuring job security and stability of career path than optimizing performance or going as far as they can go in sport. Totally different mindset for many of them.
That’s a pretty bold statement. Sure once you become a pro in these leagues you make a good living, because MLB/NFL/NBA are the pinnacle of the sport, but I am certain many pros struggle in the lower divisions around the world, at least in baseball and basketball. For American football I don’t know if there are many lower level leagues. It’s probably “make it to the top or bust”.
So not sure at all it is “easier” to become a pro in those team sports, if by pro you mean someone who makes a good living off of it. You talk about “statistically”, do you have any statistics to back your statement ? Because a hell of a lot more humans try to make it as a pro basketball or baseball player than as a pro triathlete. And we’re not talking about women sports. Good luck making money in softball.
With regards to endurance sports being “harder” to train, well, that’s what a lot of triathletes say to make themselves look or feel better than others. Every sport has its specificities. Sure in regards to volume and endurance, our sport is probably at the top or close to it. But other sports require other skills, and saying they are “easier” to train is nonsense. Easier in a physiological way, probably, but that’s not all there is to training.
Complete gibberish. What do you base that statement on ? The fact that you have coached some of them ? And what does “care about their sport” even mean ? Of course it’s a job. Just like it’s a job for pro triathletes (the real ones who actually make a living), just with more job security.
I don’t know if you mean them that way, but your posts do come across as very “holier than thou” and “let me explain to you how you should be thinking”.
7-figure salaries in MLB/NFL/NBA. It eliminates a huge amount of hardship and sacrifice.
It is easier to be a pro MLB/NFL/NBA player, both statistically and operationally. That is:
A far higher percentage of pro team sport athletes make a living at it.
Training for team sports is easy compared to endurance sports.
Pro MLB, NFL, & NBA players genuinely care less about their sport. A lot less on average, than pros making virtually zero in endurance sport.
I have coached all of them. It’s a genuine job for MLB, NFL, NBA, and they often care as much as ensuring job security and stability of career path than optimizing performance or going as far as they can go in sport. Totally different mindset for many of them. 1. 7-figure salaries in MLB/NFL/NBA. It eliminates a huge amount of hardship and sacrifice.
2. It is easier to be a pro MLB/NFL/NBA player, both statistically and operationally. That is:
A far higher percentage of pro team sport athletes make a living at it.
Training for team sports is easy compared to endurance sports.
Pro MLB, NFL, & NBA players genuinely care less about their sport. A lot less on average, than pros making virtually zero in endurance sport.
I have coached all of them. It’s a genuine job for MLB, NFL, NBA, and they often care as much as ensuring job security and stability of career path than optimizing performance or going as far as they can go in sport. Totally different mindset for many of them.
this is the only thing I will disagree with you you
the more competive a sport is the harder it is to become a pro in the sport
yes they might care less but they have done the work ANDthe talent to be there.
as somebody that has raced “pro” and would have made the usat pro criterium, with about 1 percent to spare after cycling 8 month around australia and usa sleeping in a tent.
I have 1 take on this I could not care less what forum people say either way. just do what works for the athlete ( and somebody will complain either way ) , and I would recommend this to your wife /partner just enjoy what she wants to do.
there is just not a correct answer to this.
If we simply indulge people’s feelings, which are often anxieties based on perceived risks and dangers which may not exist, we accomplish nothing. If someone is so concerned about what might be said about them online that they don’t pursue a goal, that’s a problem of their own manifestation.
Not everyone makes 7 figures and let’s include all ball sports such as soccer, hockey. The 3rd string players making about 20k a year. I think what it will come down to is the presence of an athlete. Lionel sanders talking all the big talk on social media opens the door to criticism. If your wife is humble on social media, she is fine.
Some good thoughts by all. I specifically agree with @DrAlexHarrison thoughts on how lower level pros/elite amateurs can’t win - you either are a back of the pack pro who is getting in the way of the real racers or a sandbagging amateur who should move up. It’s purgatory.
I think the point that some have made and I want to hit on again, is this proportionally will hurt women more than men. There are already less women than men racing. IM Texas had 1728 male finishers, while only having 373 female finishers. 17.7% of this field was women. This policy encourages less females to want to reach the top level - as I showed in my analysis above, we could soon be looking at ~15 person professional IM fields for women at these domestic races. I’ve spoken to multiple women in this purgatory zone and they all are a lot more interested in other sports (running, HYROX, etc.) than they were 12 months ago. Sure - there will be less women and men ‘getting in the way’ of the front of the race. But when there are less women racing triathlon in 5 years than there are now, since there are less women for prospective athletes to look up to, USAT has only themselves to blame.
A rising tide lifts all ships. Make policies to encourage more women to do the sport.
Plenty of women around the world participating in Sprint and Oly Triathlons,they just have better things to do with their time and money than the Ironman grind.
Down here in Oz the current trend with younger women is definitely health and fitness as they move away from the nightclub scene.
Here’s just one example dataset of many like it over the years.
The percentage of runners, cyclists, and swimmers, (and now triathletes) who ever make money from their sport professionally is far lower as a percentage of almost every preceding step in the pipeline than virtually all team sports. It’s largely been this way forever.
I apologize I didn’t clarify I was speaking from a place of expertise up front. I hoped to make it clear in the way that I wrote factually, if somewhat authoritatively. By “easier,” “statistically and operationally,” I meant:
It is statistically more likely (“easier”) that someone goes pro as a percentage of every preceding level of that sport’s participation numbers, in team sports as compared to triathlon.
(The data get even more striking when looking at the total earnings available at the various professional levels.) This is one of many reasons I think we should cut triathlete pros a boatload more slack for anything and everything. It’s hard as hell statistically to get where they are,
It is operationally easier because frankly, endurance sports are simply more demanding than team sports. Full stop. There’s a reason t-shirts exist proclaiming “my sport is your sport’s punishment.” In team sports, coaches and resources abound, and there is substantially more societal structure built around developing pros in those sports. You have to be the top 5% of high school baseball players to eventually make a 6-figure salary playing ball. If you’ve spent any time around baseball players, you’ll quickly realize that it doesn’t take much to be among the top 5% most dedicated players by comparison to the top 5% most dedicated XC runners, swimmers, cyclists, or triathletes.
I apologize for holier than thou tone. I’m speaking from a place of having studied and coached them all professionally from youth through the pros, and having been one of each, personally, although I was pro in none. (I went “pro” in bobsled, where if you do the sport long enough, there’s a 20% chance you’ll get NGB financial support and international competition experience under the USA flag, and a 95% chance it won’t be enough to stop working.)
For all these reasons, and especially because…
…I think we should be especially uncritical of elite-licensed triathletes and work instead to broaden access and acceptance into the fastest fields in races. Generally the opposite vibe I’ve seen on ST for…ever. And please for the love of everything can we not pretend feelings and emotions don’t matter anymore? They’re hard-wired into your and my physiology whether you like it or not and they’re faster than thoughts and they often inform thoughts even in the most rational people who claim the opposite. This statement is just generally for everyone and not targeted at anyone in particular and I just feel like it needs to be said.
The problem is now they matter TOO MUCH. We have lost critical, objective thinking, and simply to defer to "well, thats how I “feel” and therefore it is 100% valid. No it’s not. People are free to “feel” that we never landed on the Moon but that doesn’t make it a reality. If someone objectively decides they are talented enough to go pro, go for it. Success or failure will be the final arbiter, not vague feelings.
Can you expand on this? I’m of the mindset that you as a pro triathlete should “read the room” and know the right level of races you should enter. Racing top pros does nothing for your development nor do I see this as a way to open up more elite pathways?
If Oceanside is in their backyard, and if Ironman allows them to race Oceanside, and it’s a race they enjoy, it’s totally acceptable for a pro licensed athlete to race it, even if they end up last. At some point if everyone, “reads the room” as you put it, there will be no one left but the top 10-20. And even then, that last 5 athletes, should probably just read the room. Rinse and Repeat.
The take that a developing pro should forgo an easy to get to, inexpensive (to them) race and instead wait/spend more on travel is wrong with respect to Ironman racing.
Now let’s say that Ironman fiddled with the ranking structure and said newly licensed elite athletes have to choose from select B and C tier races and qualify to get on some of the more premier start lists, then you can achieve what you’re suggesting in a way that’s reasonably equitable to all.
We can agree to disagree because for the most part, not that many pro triathletes are “local” to the Oceanside area. I’d guess less than 1/3rd of the pro’s even drove to Oceanside, so this idea that they are all “local” races is probaly a bit overblown. The reality is as a professional triathlete you are “traveling” to almost every race you put on your schedule (for pro only races, you can still race “local” events to race/develop as well). So 100% you can make the most cost effective schedule as possible, but you probaly aren’t doing yourself any development favors for going to a race to finish 48 mins back of the winner and neveru being in the race simply because it’s a “local” race. So if your telling me we should applaud that or that should be welcoming to grow the elite side of sport, I think we just have a different understanding of high level sport.
And mind you I’ve coached a bunch of developing pro’s in the near 2 decades of coaching (I understand/recognize the plight of the underdog pro trying to make it). The developing pro is probaly the hardest niche of triathlon cus they aren’t good enough to make money at the sport yet, but they are too fast to be in an “AG” race, so they sorta have to get kicked in the teeth over and over and over until either they break through or they get tired of 18th out of 34 (or 78 out 91 pros) and then move on from the sport. But I don’t think putting them in races with the best of the sport does anything for them when they aren’t ready for that level of racing. So if the only answer is because “they are allowed too”, we just see things differently, and that’s ok. Thumbs up
