I have been reading the article on http://www.jbst.com/ which has info on a study in a Journal on sport Nutrition where athletes using a Sodium phosphate loading showed a 3min improvement over a 40k timetrial (these were trained 56min 40 k athletes). This is a huge gain.
1): sod Phos is a legal suppliment, but what do people think ethically about using this? Is it any different than using energy drinks, salt tablets etc?
2): Is it universally agreed that there is an improvement using it?
3): How often within a season could you use it and still gain a benifit?
When I was in school, I was part of a study for this very thing. The data seemed to point out to the improvement being real, but the events involved were short intervals. I was a swimmer, and the 100 and 200 yard events saw potential improvements of up to 2 seconds for ~ 60 sec 100 breaststroke. The runners were 400-800m types. I say potential because the control was problematic at best. It was very hard to construct the study to make comparisons (some swimmers taper better than others, etc.). It was done by an undergrad for a physiology class, and he didn’t read Portney & Watkins “Foundations of Clinical Research” beforehand.
Some stuff I learned since then:
Optygen works this way
A PhD I know recommended to me that I do a 8-10 day course of the loading maybe 2-3 times a season. He said your body produces its own buffers, and artificially increasing the buffers may reduce the body’s ability to do so on it’s own. He said “may reduce” he seemed to think the research on this was inconclusive.
Hammer nutrition sells this under the name “race day boost”. I have tried to use it for two events, but gave up taking the stuff because it was to hard to consume (a teaspoon 4 times a day for 4 days before an event). I think GI issues are a bit of a problem with this product, plus if you screw around with too much salt and then exercise very hard there is always a chance of having some major metabolic melt down (i.e. fall over dead). I have lots of Hammer products, but I’m not a big fan of this one. Tim
Its interesting that you don’y hear more about it - I wonder how many tests have been done on it? If the results are correct then it would seem you would have more time than buying aerowheels - though of course if you can only use a few times a year it wouldn’t help on your B races.
If memory serves quite a bit of study has been done on it and the reason you don’t hear about it is because the results don’t match the claims here.
Again if memory serves it was mentioned in Noakes Lore of Running. I believe the results were similar to posted above. Some, very small, gains in very short very high intensity trials, but none, conclusively shown in anything nearing “Endurance” events.
You can bet your pants that if a trained person could knock 3 minutes off their time by doing this EVERYONE would be doing it. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
If you want you can have my jar of Race Day Boost by Hammer.
I’ve tried it up to 1/2IM and felt it was in-effective . Probably caused some stomach distress, but then again everybody responds differently. It might work for you.
I does sound rather optimistic. I did think if it offered such an advantage that more would have been found out about whether it has an effect on normal buffering capabilities and therefore how often you can use it.
I have heard that Sodium bicarbonate is probably only benificial for short events - I presume this has a simalar effect to Sodium Phosphate?
Thanks Swordfish, unfortunatly (or fortunatley depending on your opinion) I live in the UK so it would probably cost more to post than it cost). I had big trouble with Acid reflux last year (still have abit of trouble), so I guess it might be best to avoid it.
Sodium phosphate loading has been reported to increase maximal oxygen uptake (6-12%), however its influence on endurance performance has been ambiguous. The aim of this study was to examine the influence of sodium phosphate loading on laboratory 16.1km cycling time-trial performance. Six trained male cyclists (V O(2) peak, 64.1+/-2.8mlkg(-1)min(-1); mean+/-S.D.) took part in a randomised double-blind crossover study. Upon completion of a control trial (C), participants ingested either 1g of tribasic dodecahydrate sodium phosphate (SP) or lactose placebo (P) four times daily for 6 days prior to performing a 16.1km (10 mile) cycling time-trial under laboratory conditions. Power output and heart rate were continually recorded throughout each test, and at two points during each time-trial expired air samples and capillary blood samples were taken. There was a 14-day period between each of the supplemented time-trials. After SP loading mean power was greater than for P and C (C, 322+/-15W; P, 317+/-16W; SP, 347+/-19W; ANOVA, P<0.05) and time to complete the 16.1km was shorter than P, but not C (ANOVA, P<0.05). During the SP trial, relative to the P, mean changes were mean power output +9.8+/-8.0% (+/-95% confidence interval); time -3.0+/-2.9%. There was a tendency towards higher V O(2) after SP loading (ANOVA, P=0.07). Heart rate, V (E), RER and blood lactate concentration were not significantly affected by SP loading.
Sodium phosphate loading significantly improved mean power output and 16.1km time-trial performance of trained cyclists under laboratory conditions with functional increases in oxygen uptake.
i feel that the people who are talking about the short high intensity benefits, are possibly confusing sodium phosphate with sodium bicarbonate. these are two different substances, with different effects.
the data on sodium phosphate loading is equivocal, however, i believe that some (all?) of this is due to the different types of phosphate used in studies (e.g., calcium phosphate, monobasic sodium phosphate, dibasic sodium phosphate, and tribasic sodium phosphate). If memory serves me correctly, the studies that used tribasic showed an ergogenic effect.
Sodium Citrate worked for me as part of a lab study on 10 mile TT rides. Can’t seem to find a commercial source of it though. The test I did was quite good for this, as we were given bottles to drink prior to riding, but weren’t told what was in them. Three runs, one with the sodium citrate, one with flavoured water, and one with something else, but weren’t told till after all the runs what we had taken for each run. Evened out discrepencies for a placebo effect I suppose.
Sodium Bicarbonate is good for short high intensity stuff like sprinting, but gives you the runs.
Sodium Phosphate, no idea.
Caffeine works for me, with roughly 1 min improvement over 40k, compared to my default state. I have to detox for 2 weeks prior to the race though as caffeine on top of my coffee addiction gives me the shakes.
Taking a supplement may improve performance simply because you know you’re taking a substance, due to perceived benefit.
Everybody’s on something, otherwise we’d be racing on bread and water. Not everything works for everyone though.
proceed with caution, sodium phosphate is a powerful osmotic laxative and is the main ingredient in Fleets Phospha Soda and OsmoPrep which are bowel cleansing agents used prior to colonoscopy, since it’s effect is created by pulling water from the body into the gut lumen it can also cause dehydration/ transient electrolyte shifts with out proper replenishment and you may require additional fluids, maybe this laxitive effect only happens at much higher doses (Osmo is 48 grams and Fleets is 60 grams) or maybe they were riding faster to get it over with so they could make it to the can…
Hammer Race Day boost, didn’t notice much effect same as the other posters. Good data out there that it might work but i sure couldn’t tell the difference. But yeah, similar idea to Optygen as well. For carefully timed caffeine pills work wonders.
I too took part in a sodium bicarb study in university. This was a good 10+ years ago, and they were trying to test the claims that drinks like Cytomax were making about lactate buffering. At the time, I had a VO2 Max around 64.
A bunch of us did 2 VO2 max tests (a week apart), full scuba gear lab stuff…
Before each test, we had to drink a shake of sorts, one which would be the real thing loaded with bicarb of some sort, one a placebo. They then inserted a line in my arm and took blood samples every so often during the VO2 Max test.
In the end, the findings were that it made no significant difference in blood lactate levels.
I guess the above doesn’t help much since I can’t remember the exact type of substance used…
My own personal experience with sodium phosphate loading (using a product that’s no longer available called Phosphate Edge and the loading protocol suggested by Friel in older copies of his Training Bible) is that it might have helped me on the handful of occasions I’ve used. I’ve only used it in conjunction with a big taper/peak, though, so I can’t pin down causality (or even correlation, really) - just that I outperformed my expectations and “rode beyond my ability” on the occasions that I used it. I have a theory that since the Friel protocol takes a couple of weeks, it helped me focus on my execution of the non-workout elements of the taper/peak (eating, sleeping, staying sober, etc) as it was another reason to pay close attention to the countdown of days leading up to my key events.
I had no problem tolerating SP as I have an iron stomach, but others that I’ve recommended have had problems, so it’s definitely something you’ll want to try out at some point in the season when the stakes are low. One interesting side-effect is that I didn’t know about until it was noted by a friend of mine is that it will make your urine acidic, and if you’re the type that gets around, the accompanying burning sensation could be mistaken for a case of the clap (this has never been an issue for me as I have no rap and there is a demonstrated correlation between laying rap and getting action - it’s on pubmed somewhere).
I’ve also experimented with sodium citrate loading - which did NOT go well. Using the amount suggested for performance enhancement had a rapid-onset laxative effect and I’m thankful I had the foresight to place my trainer near the john.
Here’s a brief summary of key points about SP loading that I can remember off the top of my head:
The literature on the effectiveness of SP loading is completely ambiguous - some studies say it’s useless, some say it’s the next best thing to an extra pint of blood, some say “meh.”
The first notable use of SP loading was by the German army in WWI. The Versailles Treaty indicates that it’s effectiveness might be less dramatic than some supplement manufacturers’ claims.
You only want to do a load a couple of times per year (like big taper/peak cycles) as it loses effectiveness if you do it too often. Chronically high phosphate levels are not a good thing.
When you’re SP loading, don’t take calcium supplements and limit the dairy intake as calcium and phosphate bind together or something and limit the effectiveness of your SP load.
On that note, this stuff isn’t completely harmless and carrying too high a phosphate concentration chronically can mess with your bone density and is associated, to some degree or another, with a host of other scary things - which also makes one stop to think about other foods and drinks that have a high phosphate content (Coke, for example) - so do your homework and know what you’re getting into. I’m sure a dietitian will chime in on this thread at some point with more substantive info and more dire warnings - discussions of SP loading that I’ve had with dietitians tend to result in some sort of kerfuffle and scolding. I, however, have not noticed any ill effects from the times that I’ve done an SP load (I also read in bad light , swim immediately after eating and engage in a host of other potentially harmful behaviors, so I’m kind of a risk taker that way)
