Slowtwitch Fitter Signal Activated - Advice for medial, lower quad muscle pain

Triathlon Forum
1

Been lurking and recently posting a bit more so decided to reach out and see if anyone on the forum might be able to help

Stats:

Height - 166 cm, longer torso

Crank Length - 165mm

Bike - Size 51 Cervelo P2

18-24 Age Group

70.3 Focus

I’ve been riding a TT bike for a little over 1.5 years now after primarily racing sprint and olympic distance on a road bike. I had a long and valuable session with an independent fitter in my local area using retul when I first got the bike. That set up a good foundation for my fit and I went back once more a month later to make some additional tweaks. Since then, I’ve gradually gone much lower on the bars and narrowed the pads significantly. The front end feels great and I feel like I could even remove the remaining spacers.

Problem is when it comes to the inside of my quads right above my knees (possibly lower sartorius muscle?) and the front of my lower quads I experience significant soreness/muscular pain at higher intensities. No pain or discomfort in the knees themselves. Z2 - Low Z3 is not really a problem. This has persisted since that initial fit, but it comes and goes with how much it bothers me. I’ve moved my cleats back as far as they’ll go, as well as change from 170mm cranks to 165 on the recommendation of the fitter. The shorter length and cleat placement seemed to help a little compared to when I first got the bike. I’ve also tried moving the saddle forward bit by bit, as far as a couple centimetres, and tried that for a few months before reverting to the original position which is nearly as far back as it will go. It just did not feel powerful or smooth and made a minimal difference in quad pain. Same goes for experimenting with saddle height changes. Usually when racing or during training, I just suck it up and deal with it.

I do not really experience the same issue when I swap the 165mm cranks for the 170mm on the road bike and adjust the saddle height. 170mm is not quite as comfortable, but still rideable. I do about 5-6 hours of yoga per week along with using a percussive therapy gun to help massage the area. This helps to keep the pain from flaring up.

I’m considering trying 155mm cranks to help. I’ve been looking at the ROTOR Aldhu24 Cranks along with their Oval Q ring as from what I’ve read, it seems like some users experience reduced pressure around the knee area. The 165mm Stages L gen. 3 power meter I have would probably just permanently move to the road bike instead of selling since that has no power. It would mean having to swap to ROTOR’s inspider power meter or some other option for the TT bike. I have yet to dive down the rabbit hole to see what’s compatible. It’s worth it if it means I can be totally comfortable while training/racing.

I appreciate any advice, personal experience, etc. on whether or not the shorter cranks + oval ring might help or other suggestions.

Video was taken today around 70.3 effort. Putting it up in case there’s any issues someone might notice.

https://youtu.be/bD0P6FZXAcs

2

Your seat’s too high.

3

Your seat’s too high.

Why do you think so? Using a protractor app shows an angle of about 143-146ish. Obviously that’s not super exact, but still doesn’t seem too extended

4

It is a bit high. Maybe 1 cm lower would be worth a try.

I doubt that’s e source of your thigh pain, though.

5

You might also try moving your arm pads forward about 2 cm and your seat forward the same (and higher about 4 mm to compensate). A steeper position might help reduce knee flexibility, which might help with the thigh pain.

6

your saddle is too high and your cranks are too long for where your front end is positioned.

you seem to have an impingement at the top of the pedal stroke. your pedal stroke is not particularly smooth, perhaps due to this. kudos on a well taken fit critique video.

7

That’s 3 for too high! Thanks for responses so far, glad the video was sufficient. Yes, I do feel like there’s more strain at the very top of the pedal stroke in the hip area.

I’ll start by lowering the saddle and then move things forward. Probably adjusting the saddle height, and starting too high, more than I’ve needed to when changing setback made it uncomfortable.

I’m definitely going to go through with the 155mm crankset. Not sure if any shorter is necessary. Still considering the Q ring, but that probably won’t improve the thigh pain.

8

Your seat’s too high.

Why do you think so? Using a protractor app shows an angle of about 143-146ish. Obviously that’s not super exact, but still doesn’t seem too extended

Because hips are rocking side to side and feet are plantar-flexing at the bottom of the stroke.

9

your saddle is too high and your cranks are too long for where your front end is positioned.

you seem to have an impingement at the top of the pedal stroke. your pedal stroke is not particularly smooth, perhaps due to this. kudos on a well taken fit critique video.

“He’s gonna need a bigger boat!!!”

10

I agree with James and Trent.

Rather than lower your seat, move it forward “x” mm, and move your pads forward in conjunction “3x”. I think Trent recommended starting with 5mm.

Eric

11

Update

Adjustments I ended up making

  • Moved Saddle 1.5 cm forward

  • Lowered Saddle 8 mm after moving it forward (felt like I was overextending)

  • Moved bars forward 2.5 cm (shown in video, tried it, changed to 1.5 cm forward)

Saddle height is now about 685mm BB to saddle center

I also took a video from the front. I believe what’s happening is as I strain to come over 12 o’clock in the pedal stoke, my knees are swinging out slightly to compensate for the cranks being too long (left leg is weaker so I’m seeing more movement)

The higher saddle has probably felt better because it relieves the strain on the hip and knee areas.

After moving everything, I feel more relaxed and hips/glutes are not as tight. However, lower quad soreness/pain is more pronounced.

So with shorter cranks, basically the shortest I can go without getting custom would be 145 from John Cobb or 150 from ROTOR. Any reasons why I shouldn’t just go to the lowest sized ROTOR crankset? If I go 145 with the Cobb then I don’t have as many options for chain rings and power meters

Side

https://youtu.be/Uz_cAaPi3-4

Front (please ignore or admire the floral print in the background)

https://youtu.be/746UGLMwtGI

Thanks again, I’m trying to take advantage of the lack of racing right now

12

Saddle forward another 1 cm and keep everything else the same.

13

Saddle forward another 1 cm and keep everything else the same.

Saddle forward 1cm

Definitely feels more comfortable/stable. Thigh stuff is better but not cured (even if it was it’d definitely not be an overnight adjustment) so holding out for that with crank change. How’s it look?

https://youtu.be/vtbPU0qD7nw

14

Saddle another cm forward, drop the cockpit 1 cm, and angle the extensions upward slightly.

15

Saddle another cm forward, drop the cockpit 1 cm, and angle the extensions upward slightly.

why is he having the leg issues?

16

Saddle another cm forward, drop the cockpit 1 cm, and angle the extensions upward slightly.

Always love your advice Trent, wish you were in my neck of the woods!

17

Saddle another cm forward, drop the cockpit 1 cm, and angle the extensions upward slightly.

why is he having the leg issues?No idea - could be injury, could be biomechanics, could be position, could be psychological. I’m no sorcerer. Seriously though, diving into specific discomfort outside of a few circumstances requires a lot more than video and analysis from people a lot more knowledgeable than me.

All I really can do is put a rider in an orthodox position and sometimes, consequently, pains and discomforts sort themselves out. I’d get lots of ‘you fixed my knee!’ feedback. But really, I just put them in an orthodox position and *that *fixed their knee. Or hip or back or hands or whatever. When I’d work with physiologists or physical therapists or chiropractors or physicians, the goal of the bike fit was to eliminate the bike fit as the cause of the problem. The goal wasn’t to fix the problem.

In my opinion, specific discomfort shouldn’t inform the fitter much on positional issues outside of a couple of exceptions. Fitters who make changes based primarily on reported pains and discomforts, absent a few bonafide physiological experts (and honestly, I don’t know who they are), are probably off in the weeds. That’s a big reason why so many fitters that approach things medically end up with awful results.

The biggest exception to this is saddle discomfort. The rider primarily steers things on saddle choice and will have to let me know what’s comfortable and what’s not. But even then, we don’t compromise on the rider’s position relative the bike. We just need to find the right saddle and setup that accommodates that position.

Another exception is neck and shoulder discomfort. I’ll adjust armpad width and rotation and extension angle (and sometimes, equipment choice) based on the a rider’s reported shoulder or neck discomfort.

The last exception that comes to mind is foot discomfort - I’ll pull cleats back a bit further, change the medial-later position a bit, or recommend orthotics. But I’m not willing to do much more than that. Lots of fitters get really cute when it comes to cleat position and shims and wedges. I can count the number of times I shimmed on one hand for my entire fit career, and I got to where I very, very rarely added wedges. I just didn’t feel comfortable that I was actually affecting things the way I hope I was and not just transferring the problem somewhere else or compounding the problem. I just molded orthotics instead and generally had great results both in rider feedback and in profitable sales of insoles.

Feet are excessively complicated. There are specific doctors who address only foot issues, after all, and anecdotally they don’t have the greatest track record. I can’t tell you how many fit clients spent hundreds or thousands on trips to the podiatrist and got (or so they thought) poor results. Feet are hard and they play a role in virtually to every other issue a rider can experience on the bike. If a podiatrist can’t figure out the problem, I don’t have much chance. I can pull the cleats back, mold orthotics, and get them to change shoes if they are not sized right. That’s about it.

Inevitably, a fitter somewhere will respond to all of this and tell me about the time they fit the one-legged lady with four toes and hip trauma and arms that are two different lengths. They’ll regale me with details of their brilliant analysis and solution. And maybe they did amazing work for people with abnormal physiology. But those extreme outliers don’t inform much when it comes to fitting a normal, generally healthy, goal-minded athletes that make up 99.9% of fit clientele.

(Eric - I know you know all of this, I’ve seen your work, and I respect it - just posting this commentary for what I hope is the benefit of the board)

18

Saddle 1cm forward, 1cm spacer taken out. Tilted bars 5 degrees. Feels much more dialled in now, and at the same power I’ve been at for all these videos this was the most relaxed.

I’ve had the bars all the way up to 12 degrees before but since my extensions don’t independently tilt, and level bars still feel fine, I prefer to keep it low. Being out of aero starts to feel a little straining, and the fact that the aura pro grips have an angle to them doesn’t help.

https://youtu.be/cmNpV49lq7E

19

OK just checking. Putting someone in an orthodox position rather than fix a leg pain issue over the internet makes total sense.

I get it now.

Saddle another cm forward, drop the cockpit 1 cm, and angle the extensions upward slightly.

why is he having the leg issues?No idea - could be injury, could be biomechanics, could be position, could be psychological. I’m no sorcerer. Seriously though, diving into specific discomfort outside of a few circumstances requires a lot more than video and analysis from people a lot more knowledgeable than me.

All I really can do is put a rider in an orthodox position and sometimes, consequently, pains and discomforts sort themselves out. I’d get lots of ‘you fixed my knee!’ feedback. But really, I just put them in an orthodox position and *that *fixed their knee. Or hip or back or hands or whatever. When I’d work with physiologists or physical therapists or chiropractors or physicians, the goal of the bike fit was to eliminate the bike fit as the cause of the problem. The goal wasn’t to fix the problem.

In my opinion, specific discomfort shouldn’t inform the fitter much on positional issues outside of a couple of exceptions. Fitters who make changes based primarily on reported pains and discomforts, absent a few bonafide physiological experts (and honestly, I don’t know who they are), are probably off in the weeds. That’s a big reason why so many fitters that approach things medically end up with awful results.

The biggest exception to this is saddle discomfort. The rider primarily steers things on saddle choice and will have to let me know what’s comfortable and what’s not. But even then, we don’t compromise on the rider’s position relative the bike. We just need to find the right saddle and setup that accommodates that position.

Another exception is neck and shoulder discomfort. I’ll adjust armpad width and rotation and extension angle (and sometimes, equipment choice) based on the a rider’s reported shoulder or neck discomfort.

The last exception that comes to mind is foot discomfort - I’ll pull cleats back a bit further, change the medial-later position a bit, or recommend orthotics. But I’m not willing to do much more than that. Lots of fitters get really cute when it comes to cleat position and shims and wedges. I can count the number of times I shimmed on one hand for my entire fit career, and I got to where I very, very rarely added wedges. I just didn’t feel comfortable that I was actually affecting things the way I hope I was and not just transferring the problem somewhere else or compounding the problem. I just molded orthotics instead and generally had great results both in rider feedback and in profitable sales of insoles.

Feet are excessively complicated. There are specific doctors who address only foot issues, after all, and anecdotally they don’t have the greatest track record. I can’t tell you how many fit clients spent hundreds or thousands on trips to the podiatrist and got (or so they thought) poor results. Feet are hard and they play a role in virtually to every other issue a rider can experience on the bike. If a podiatrist can’t figure out the problem, I don’t have much chance. I can pull the cleats back, mold orthotics, and get them to change shoes if they are not sized right. That’s about it.

Inevitably, a fitter somewhere will respond to all of this and tell me about the time they fit the one-legged lady with four toes and hip trauma and arms that are two different lengths. They’ll regale me with details of their brilliant analysis and solution. And maybe they did amazing work for people with abnormal physiology. But those extreme outliers don’t inform much when it comes to fitting a normal, generally healthy, goal-minded athletes that make up 99.9% of fit clientele.

(Eric - I know you know all of this, I’ve seen your work, and I respect it - just posting this commentary for what I hope is the benefit of the board)

20

If the leg pain is not relieved by the shorter cranks, I’ll definitely setup another appointment with the local guy to get that in-person analysis once he can open his studio. I’m really appreciative of the feedback I’ve been getting for these videos. Making sure everything else is set before trying out the different equipment is definitely helpful in isolating the issue.