During the week I do all of my run/bike training in the early AM. I have a nearly 4 year old and a 5 month old, and lately the later hasn’t been sleeping well. What do folks feel is the minimum sleep needed for morning training? I know this is highly individual as some can function on pretty low amounts of sleep. I’m generally getting up in the 4:30-5:00 range to fit in a 60-90 minute workout M-F.
I bailed on the easy 60 min spin this morning - I would have had less than five hours of sleep going into the workout, so I decided to get a bit more sleep.
Like you said it’s different for everyone. My wife is functionally useless without roughly 8 hours. For myself between 5.5 and 6 is my sweet spot although I’ve trained with less many times.
7.5 Hours of sleep minimum. You cannot make up for lost sleep through naps 7.5 hours over the course of months should give you enough sleep to get through morning workouts. Just like gaining weight, sleep deficit takes months to form and takes months to repair just like losing weight. Consistency is key remember it cannot be made up with a nap here and there.
I’d say this is too individual to really get useful feedback, unfortunately.
Not only does it vary person to person but it also varies as you age.
I’ve spent most of my life sleeping very little. In my teens, 20s and early 30s I lived quite happily on between 3 and 5hrs sleep a night. In my early twenties I honestly went to bed at 02:30hrs or later most nights and was typically awake by 06:30hrs. However, I wasn;t an athlete at the time and that may have made a difference. As I got into my late 30s and now early 40s my requirement for sleep seems to be gradually increasing. Much of the increase seems due to age but training volume definitely has an impact too. I’d say I need 5.5hrs to be feeling good nowadays and even then I could use 6-7hrs after a tough day.
You’re better off getting the sleep rather than an extra training session. If you go into a training session without getting enough sleep, then your performance will suffer and so will your body. I don’t like getting any less than 7 hours of sleep. I prefer 8-9 hours.
When I had my 2nd kid, I focused on marathons for a few years. Broke 3 hours, but took me 3 tries and about 1.5 years. I discovered that I needed to really REST and focus on the key runs to get better. Even if it was just 3 key runs per week, I got faster as long as I did that long run+intervals.
It was a lot easier in terms of training hours vs. IM. I still did a few Olympics and maintained a few bikes and swims per week, but nothing serious. Now she’s almost 3 years old (1st one is 5) and they sleep through the night, so I’m back to Ironman this year.
Depends on your setup, but I can ride from 6-7am on my trainer (get 7-8 hours sleep), get kids ready for school, run my kid to school and then to work (about 5+ miles). 27.5m pool is across the street from work so go at lunch (Weights and Wattbike at the office gym as well). What’s your commute like?
You can make it work, just have to mix it up and maybe have a different focus until the kids are older. I try to get the right amount of rest, sessions, and I’m lighter than ever (better diet). I’ve actually done all my PBs at almost every distance since having kids - Olympic tri, Ironman tri, half marathon, marathon, 10k, etc…Hoping to do the same this year!
Sleep is worth more than a recovery session for sure.
But the OP should see how he feels when waking up. If he’s had several days of good sleep, and then one short night but wakes up feeling good, he should go for it.
But if getting up that early results in feeling like crap even after a good night’s sleep, then he needs to reevaluate the total quantity of sleep.
It doesn’t really matter what we think. It depends on what you’ve historically needed. We are all somewhere on the bell curve. Some need 4 while others need 9. As others mention if you are getting sick or don’t feel rested then it’s probably not enough. Although ideal to get the sleep at night in one big block it is sorta reasonable (not great by any stretch) to nap to get to your goal. It’s better than being completely sleep deprived.
There are serious health issues with increased morbidity with insufficient sleep but interestingly there are some studies that show an increase morbidity with sleeping too much.
I’ve been waking up before 4 am for so many years that I cannot remember, but at the same time I have been going pretty well training twice a day for many years. At first it really bothered me that I started naturally waking up early and I thought everything would start coming apart on 5 to 6 hours, but it hasn’t. So far anyway. It’s been this way at least 10 years. Maybe 15. Long term results are still in the works…we’ll see how it turns out.
I would suggest 8 hours of sleep, but for some it is what it is. Rather than just lay there awake I go ahead and get the day going early. I get my first training session done at the gym, get into work early and most of the time I get to leave early to get home to train on the Kickr for 90 +/- minutes and then get to spend a couple hours hanging out with my wife.
Like others have mentioned I pay attention to some of the key signals. As long as I remain motivated to train, and I do, and as long as my body is responsive in a positive way to training I keep plugging away and stay on schedule.
As someone who suffered from insomnia after a TBI, and has young children. I did some research on this. If I remember correctly 5:15 was the magic number needed before cognitive ability was compromised. Doesn’t exactly answer your question, but for me that is the cutoff that I use when deciding to power through tiredness and getting some more rest.
I have been skipping sleep in favor of training for years now. Our common coach, Steve Johnson, more than once implied that my schedule was hurting my progress. One thing that I always noticed was that my best training and physiologic gains seemed to happen while on vacation. I wasn’t training any more or any harder but would always get nine (or more) hours of sleep per night; it was like supercharging my performance.
This year I am taking a break from focused tri training and becoming more of a pure runner. That means that there is an extra hour of sleep every morning instead of going to the pool. I haven’t felt this good in years. It’s crazy. Of course, if there are improvements in my run I won’t know if it is because of the focused run training or the extra sleep… or probably a combination of the two.
My answer going forward is that I am not going to even think about training in the morning unless I have gotten at least six hours of sleep and my goal is to get seven to eight hours per night. My two cents.
looks like more advice on how much sleep is needed than anything
I ride 1-2 hrs most days before work with a toddler as well, I always stated I would never train this early but to get the volume I wanted I made the change and will commute later in year to boost volume but I am usually asleep just before or around 8pm when getting up early. I try to have at least one day a week to sleep in - closer to 9 hrs of sleep but on avg when training early I sleep 7.5 hrs with a training volume of 13-17 hrs ( roadie)
This sleeping thing has been my problem since day 1.
I work the night shift and its hard for me to get even 4hrs of sleep when I sleep during the day.
Now i have a 4yr old and a 1.75yrs old. I have to be up before my wife goes to work at 2:30pm
My daily goes like this:
11:30pm to 7:30am work (im a nurse if that matters)
7:30am to 8:15 drive home
9am to 1pm ( My body has gotten used to getting up at this time. Worse in the summer months when its bright and hot even when my rooms pitch dark.)
1pm breakfast choires play witht the kids
2:30pm 4:30pm put my 2nd daughter to nap. The first daughter is independent and would play on her own while i work out. While my daughter this when i ride my trainer or run on treadmills. My trainings been indoors 99% all year rounds so its easier for me and my family.
4:30pm 7pm playtime, park, dinner making dinner tv time
7pm to 7:30pm prep for sleep 8 to 10:40pm nap time for me.
11pm drives to work.
I do get an hour nap at work but it all depends on how busy it is that night. So my total for the day is 7hrs +/- this is doesnt happen everyday cause life suck and just throw random things at you on different days.
Im also in and out of the doctors office not because Im sick but I paid attention to little things in my system (thanks free healthcare). All my bloodworks are fine and nothing seems to be bothering me in physical test.
Just 2 weeks ago i saw my sleep doctor and went through the result of my sleep study and he said im perfectly normal.
He told me that i dont have to sleep7-9hrs of sleep everynight as long as i get a total of 6hrs and up of sleep a day Im okay.
In training perspective.
My fitness has gone up.
Just started swimming again in january and i went from 2:10/100m to 1:55 in 2 months.
Bike ftp in jan1 was 260w now at 280w (june 1 230w if you wanna go back that far)
Run
Hr for 5k easy on dec 31st was 134bpm at 6mph on a treadmill
Hr for 5k easy mid feb 125bpm at 6.2mph on a treadmill.
So my fitness has improve while i break up my 7hrs of sleep a day.
We just had our first child 5 months ago, I am lucky he sleeps 10-12 hours a day, I require a min of 6-7 hours preferable 7-8 else my AM workouts suffer.
Lots of different opinions here and I’m sure its correct that some people can get by with alot less sleep than others - though I have a hard time believing that anyone with a busy schedule realistically can get away with less than 5-6 hrs a night in the long run (and thats without training). I’m sure that a lot of people can survive on that few hours - but how much are they compromised?
If you add training to the equation I’d claim that sleep is alot more important than most AG athletes believe. Some might function at 6 hrs of sleep pr night with 10-20 training-hrs pr week, but I’d be willing to wager that 95% of said athletes would be faster athletes if they traded 50% of their training - hours for sleep. Without sufficient sleep I thing all your training is sub-optimal. I have know research or evidence to back this up - but show me the top (olympian world class) athlete that goes by with anything less than 8-9 hrs of sleep pr night and I might start thinking otherwise.
I have some wacky sleep problems. I’ve seen a sleep specialist, got tested for apnea (severe in REM), have a CPAP machine, and my sleep is STILL wacky, but at least functional now.
I have a bizarre but working semi-regular sleep/training schedule - sleep 4-5 hours, wake up at like 2AM, workout (often pretty hard) for 1-2 hours, then go back to sleep. I do this at least 3x/wk. I wish I could just sleep 7-8 in a row, but it doesn’t happen unless I’m sick (I just lie there awake with eyes closed, for 2 hours…)
I still however need a total of 7-8 hours on average of shut-eye to feel fully refreshed, even if I can run pretty hard after the first 4-5 hour sleep session.
Nate i have given up sleeping over 7 hours a night, while i don’t have 2 kids i have a new business that takes all my time now. Sleep has been routine 5-6.5 hours night past 2 months training for IMTX. I did totally crash the other weekend and slept like 10.5 hours. One reason i have not been on ST near as much either
Lots of different opinions here and I’m sure its correct that some people can get by with alot less sleep than others - though I have a hard time believing that anyone with a busy schedule realistically can get away with less than 5-6 hrs a night in the long run (and thats without training). I’m sure that a lot of people can survive on that few hours - but how much are they compromised?
If you add training to the equation I’d claim that sleep is alot more important than most AG athletes believe. Some might function at 6 hrs of sleep pr night with 10-20 training-hrs pr week, but I’d be willing to wager that 95% of said athletes would be faster athletes if they traded 50% of their training - hours for sleep. Without sufficient sleep I thing all your training is sub-optimal. I have know research or evidence to back this up - but show me the top (olympian world class) athlete that goes by with anything less than 8-9 hrs of sleep pr night and I might start thinking otherwise.
Based on what?
I did get by on less than that for many years (typically 3-4hrs) without any noticeable negative effects. For most of this time I was either an engineering/aerospace student or working in relatively high stress situations. My mental acuity and physical performance were both excellent. I doubt I was noticeably compromised…but if I was imagine how great I would have been with more sleep!!!
