ok from reading the thread about lessing, i was just wondering how many other pros out there basically ride in just a ‘slack’ position. how does this benefit certain people? hw does the steep position benefit running off the bike. i made a thread a while back about whether timetrial bikes were worth it. i ride a road bike with clip on aerobars.
what are the ideas behind the two different positions?
Wow you stepped on a landmine there. I think most everybody(probably 90%) of the folks here like steep angles on the tribikes, because they run better afterward. I personally like to move around on my saddle from the rivet to the rails. My TT bike is set up around 74 ish so I can scoot up to the front or be behind and push. My road bikes are set up around 71-72 and my track around 75. Again I am all over my saddle. When just powering along I like to be laid back a tad and when stressed move up.
I don’t run very well off the bike with either position so I am not the best one to ask about that. I don’t feel any different whether riding shallow or steep during the run. Hope that helped
heh it definitely wasnt a troll. ive never ridden a tri bike so i dunno. why is it meant to be easier to run off? less stress on yr running muscles?
Slowman has a decent article about the “Science” of the two positions. Keep in mind, the “Science” isn’t along the same lines of the science that got men to the moon. But, there is a fairly commonly held theory about why steep is better for the run afterward. That being said, individuals are constructed differently, and steepness may not be “best” for a given individual. Partly, it depends upon what an individual is used to. But, interestingly, at least one of tests took slack-riding individuals and tested their bike split with a run immediately afterward. THEN, put them on a steep setup (that they were not used to) and found they were similar in speed but faster on the run…especially the first mile!
The only way I know to tell which is best for you is for you to experiment with both. The thing that is hard about this kind of experiment is that perhaps there is a learning curve that would affect the outcome. Perhaps some day, there will be a chart similar to a bicycle “fit chart”, that could help direct you to a starting point. For example, if you have thighs that are at least as big in circumference as your femur is long, and you have a lower than 83 cadence, slacker is a better starting point. Conversely, if you have thighs that have a circumference less than 70% of your femur length, and you have a preferred cadence of greater than 95 rpm, you start at 80 degrees.
I don’t know how Ves Mandaric comes to his conclusion about steepness/crankarm length/rpms, but he seems to have nailed my tendencies pretty well. I’ve never been more comfortable nor more fast on the bike as well as the run afterward as I am now that he set me at 76 degrees. I’ve had two coaches evaluate my position, and they also are very happy with me at 76 degrees and about 85 rpm. Some of this is a result of “experience” of the evaluators, but, it may be possible for many experienced successful evaluators to all get together and distill a chart that would be a good starting point for someone that has no idea where to begin. There’s no financial incentive for these experienced people to get together, so I’m not saying it will happen, just that if it did happen, the results could be useful.
Even most Pro roadies ride a steeper angle on their time trial bike than on their road bike. I think you would see even steeper angles with them if it was allowed. As for triathlon Pro’s I can’t figure out why they do many things. They come up with some strange positions.
Some great points here about position… To answer your question about what pros seem to ride what setup. Well, I believe Gerard from Cervelo was here yesterday talking about how at Kona the pros were at about 50/50 (steep versus slack). Where he believes it should be more like 80/20 (steep/slack)… One note that I read (I believe it was an article by Slowman) It seems a lot of the Europeans favor the ‘slack’ setup (although there are many exceptions) and most North Americans, Aussies and Kiwis prefer the steep rides (again exceptions here).
Here are some notables:
Peter Reid - Road bike setup steep this year (probably between 76 - 78 degrees depending on where he was riding on the saddle in different photos)
Tim Deboom - Steep
Jurgen Zack - Steep (although he doesn’t have the flattest back)
Luc Van Lierde - Slack
Chris McCormack - Slack
Macca’s fellow Aussie, Walto - Steep
Note: these are just guesses by looking at the way they ride. When I say steep I mean about 76 degrees or higher
Dan “Slowman” Empfield recently had a really great article in Triathlete Magazine a on seat tube angles and laid back seatposts that really gets to the nitty gritty of this debate. It matters more whether one is riding steep than if one’s seat tube is steep. People can ride steep on a road bike–although it is harder to without sacrificing handling–by sliding forward on the saddle ie. riding on the nose. Check out Tyler Hamilton’s time trial position and you will notice that althougth his saddle is UCI compliant at 5cm back from the bottom bracket, he rides very steeply–I would bet at 77-79 degrees–by riding very far forward on the nose. Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano rides steep too, by having custom snub nosed saddle to allow him to achieve a steep riding position. There are many more pro riders who do the same. In contrast one can ride a steep angled rocket very shallow by having a laid back seatpost, the saddle shoved back, and riding it with one’s butt way back on the saddle.
I bet if Slowman could get a collection of pics of most pros average riding position, we would find that most pro–non-drafting–triathletes ride steep even when their seat tube is on the slacker side.
I ride very steep myself at probably 80 degrees when powering away on the flats, but I slide back in my saddle and choke up on the bars and spin about 85 to 105 RPM depending on the grade of a climb–thanks for the great tips and info Slowman! Climbing like that takes some time and discipline to get used too, but once one becomes comfortable with climbing like that, it is very effective.
I Just found some excellent pics of top road pros riding their shallow time trial bikes from medium steep (75-77 degrees) to very steep (77+). These pics provide “some” support to Slowman’s theries of steep riding and the relation between time trialling/aero riding. These are pics of top pro cyclists including time trial power houses Tyler Hamilton, Jan Ullrich, David Millar and others. The vast majority of them when powering on the flats look to ride at about 76-78 degrees, so the debate continues…steep or shallow…I say steep is best when time trialling even in pro cycling, but with some exceptions. Take a look at some great pics of the worlds’ best cyclists their bike positions and high tech time trial gear!
Tyler Hamilton
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03prnice04-027000
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03critinterSt3-007000
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03tdfPrologue-006000
Dario Frigo
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03prnice04-029000
Cadel Evans
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=photos/2004/mar04/murcia/stage2/cycling-tourofmurcia-e-59
Jan Ullrich (notice the amount of saddle sticking out behind his butt)
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03tdfSt12-010000
Alexandre Vinokourov
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03tdfSt12-008000
David Millar
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03tdfSt12-004000
Isidro Nozal (last years almost Vuelta Winner@ probably 75-76 degrees and what a dead sexy time trial bike)
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03vueltaSt13-012000
Serguei Honchar
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03giroSt15-009000
Yarsolav Popovych
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/photos/03giroSt21-003000
Being a roadie who’s never been on a tri-bike, I have a question regarding fit.
If my ideal top tube on my road bike is about 53cm, with a seat tube angle of 74 deg, I’m assuming that given that I’ll be sitting somewhat farther forward on a steep angle tri-bike, with my elbows just short of the head tube, does this mean that when I’m fitted to let’s say, a QR Caliente, that my effective top tube sizing will have to be smaller than 53cm?
Or am I imagining it wrong in my head?
You’ve got it right!
Yeah, generally “tri” bikes tend to have shorter top tubes and head tubes in concerct with a steeper seat angle to assist in getting low and aero without compromising comfort. If one rides a shallow (72-74 degrees) time trial bike to stay UCI legal (ie. saddle nose 5cm behind bottom bracket), a rider ends up folding themself in half to get low and aero.
In regard to your question, generally you will ride say a 51-52cm top tube to get the perfect top tube combination. But fit depends not only on body geometry and sizing, but upon flexibility and strength too. The latter are just as important. Lance Armstrong is one of the few pro riders that ride shallow in a time trial set up with compromising aerodynamics. Lance must have built up a lot of flexibility and strength over the years to ride shallow, low and aero–not easy while maintaining power. When he was a triathlete he rode steep, but then he had to run off the bike, too.