I just tried Skratch Labs Lemon and Limes for the first time and I really like it. However, it’s very low in calories. I was thinking of adding a scoop of CarboPro to a serving. This takes the caloric level from 80 to about 200. Does this defeat the purpose of this product? The inventor does not seem to be a big fan of liquid calories.
I had been doing that this summer, trying to get over 200 calories per hour. But then I started cramping during my OTB runs and wondered if my body was having trouble absorbing water. So I switched back to the ratios that they recommend based on their research.
If it’s hot and you’re drinking a lot you can easily get enough calories, and I think if you look closely a scoop of SL is about the same as a scoop of CP. My wife’s system was to have a heavily concentrated bottle of CP that she flavours with SL, then has pure water to drink and that worked well for her.
I decided instead of use a combination of salt pills, skratch labs, and hammer gel. Overall I feel like that worked really well.
What distance are you focused on?
That is pretty much what Allen Lim, creator of Skratch Labs, says not to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NNRpxBTpk8&feature=relmfu
If you really are set on doing liquid calories, try 1 bottle loaded with carbo pro and treat it like food. Then have other bottles filled with skratch that you use for hydration.
Skratch Labs + CarboPro is basically EFS - https://www.firstendurance.com/nutrition/efs-drink.html
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Skratch Labs + CarboPro is basically EFS - https://www.firstendurance.com/...ition/efs-drink.html
The difference is not really in the calories. The two products are similar in philosophy - less calories, more electrolytes - but if you used the same size scoop, Skratch would actually have more calories.
Skratch: 23g serving = 80 calories
EFS: 32g serving = 96 calories
The differences are:
a) EFS has more non-sodium electrolytes than Skratch
b) EFS has amino acids, Skratch doesn’t
c) flavouring: EFS has “natural flavours” (not sure which), Skratch has freeze dried fruit for flavour
d) recommended concentration: Skratch says to mix 23g scoop in 500ml water, EFS says to mix 32g in 350ml
Allen Lim developed his theories working with cyclists who ride all day and need lots of calories. His experience, again with cyclists, is that eating real food for calories and drinking to meet hydration needs worked the best. For ProTour level cyclists.
I personally think Asker Jeukendrup, a published expert in the sports nutrition field and an accomplished Ironman athlete himself, has research and experience more relevant for long distance triathletes than Lim. My personal experience also tells me that I can digest real food better while cycling than I can while running.
See which theory makes the most sense for you and try it out for a while in lots of conditions in training. Then try a different system for a while and see if it seems to work better for you. Try another if you think it’s worth it.
If/when you find a system that works in races, in tough conditions, then write it down and always make sure you can go back to it after you’ve tried out each new idea that you feel you have to try. Or stick with what works and never deviate from it if that’s the way your mind works.
It seems that nutrition and proper pacing are keys to “getting” the ironman distance and racing to your potential.
My personal experience also tells me that I can digest real food better while cycling than I can while running.
From the little I’ve read about Lim I think he pretty much agrees with you. He does not advocate his “real food” idea for running. Just on the bike.
I just tried Skratch Labs Lemon and Limes for the first time and I really like it. However, it’s very low in calories. I was thinking of adding a scoop of CarboPro to a serving. This takes the caloric level from 80 to about 200. Does this defeat the purpose of this product? The inventor does not seem to be a big fan of liquid calories.
You are missing the point of Skratch Labs - it is meant to be an electrolyte drink and your calories are meant to be added by solid foods which the stomach tolerates better. The main premise behind Skratch Labs is that too many calories in liquid form can lead to dehyration and poor absorbtion
^^^ This
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I just tried Skratch Labs Lemon and Limes for the first time and I really like it. However, it’s very low in calories. I was thinking of adding a scoop of CarboPro to a serving. This takes the caloric level from 80 to about 200. Does this defeat the purpose of this product? The inventor does not seem to be a big fan of liquid calories.
You are missing the point of Skratch Labs - it is meant to be an electrolyte drink and your calories are meant to be added by solid foods which the stomach tolerates better. The main premise behind Skratch Labs is that too many calories in liquid form can lead to dehyration and poor absorbtion
^^^ This
^This^ (as you say), is incorrect if you’re referring to the bold comment.
If your liquid caloric intake is too high, replacing those calories w/ a solid calorie source isn’t going to make this better, quite the opposite actually. Conversely, if your solid calorie intake is too high, replacing those w/ a liquid calorie source, *could *remedy the problem.
I guess the proof is in the results of the individual. Since I’ve switched over to the SL and solid foods, I no longer have rot gut at the end of a long ride. And I feel good. Much better than the results I was getting from gels and overly caloric sports drinks. Another thing that I like about SL is that I don’t get the flavor fatigue that I would get from things like that from PowerBar or Gatorade type formulas.
Am I saying that it is the end all/be all? No. But it has had a definitively positive effect on my training/racing. And isn’t that the real measure?
People are individuals, and 1 thing does not work for everyone. It’s like running shoes. You search and search for that pair that works for you. (And then they stop making it. LOL)
Been using Scratch Labs for long stuff. Works great!
Initial claim: “too many calories in liquid form can lead to dehydration and poor absorbtion”
You you responded that this is incorrect and that “If your caloric intake is too high, replacing those calories w/a solid calorie source isn’t going to make this better, quite the opposite actually.”
Isn’t going to make what better? Quite the opposite of what? Isn’t going to make absorption of fluids better or won’t address the issue that caloric intake is too high?
Skratch drink mix doesn’t aim to address proper caloric intake… that’s a separate, but related issue. Their claim (as I understand it) is that high calorie drinks/gels inhibit fluid absorption. Is it this claim that you are saying is incorrect? If so, do you think that high calorie drinks may promote fluid absorption?
I think part of the other difference is how the body processes calories from breaking down food versus absorbing calories from liquid.
I just tried Skratch Labs Lemon and Limes for the first time and I really like it. However, it’s very low in calories. I was thinking of adding a scoop of CarboPro to a serving. This takes the caloric level from 80 to about 200. Does this defeat the purpose of this product? The inventor does not seem to be a big fan of liquid calories.
You are missing the point of Skratch Labs - it is meant to be an electrolyte drink and your calories are meant to be added by solid foods which the stomach tolerates better. The main premise behind Skratch Labs is that too many calories in liquid form can lead to dehyration and poor absorbtion
^^^ This
^This^ (as you say), is incorrect if you’re referring to the bold comment.
If your liquid caloric intake is too high, replacing those calories w/ a solid calorie source isn’t going to make this better, quite the opposite actually. Conversely, if your solid calorie intake is too high, replacing those w/ a liquid calorie source, *could *remedy the problem.
yeah. I would love to hear your explanation as I did the exact opposite of what you are suggesting Brian and have had zero nutritional issues and have had 2 pr’s (HIM and Oly distance). . I went from using a ton of gels and liquids for calorie source on the bike to using whole foods and using lighter calorie drinks and water for my hydration. I also use salt tabs. on the run I use water and on course energy drink together…zero issues. so if you could please explain what you are talking about. all you did was say something vague. intensity and HR levels are a huge factor in digestion as is decrease in blood volume due to dehydration/sodium issues. not trying to sound malicious…sorry. offer up an explanation since you are a nutrition expert.
I think that nutritional considerations can be summed up this way: There are experts that understand the science of how our body handles nutrition and have experiments (some also have experiences) to back up claims. We, as individual athletes, take this data as guiding principles as a base for nutritional strategy. We are all an experiment of 1 and use our own findings to tweak or change as we see fit. Places like ST or tri club gatherings are great places to share what has worked-and not-as real-world experience seems to mean more to us than lab findings(at least to me).
I’ve used Skratch for 2 90-milers with baby red potatoes and Cliff bars for my calories and hit the wall on both. I did a 100-miler (over the primarily the same course) with my 300-cal bottles of Perpetuem and baby red potatoes and never felt like I was in trouble. It is very possible that the food combination was not right with Skratch rides. I’ll probably try some of the rice cakes and see if that makes a difference, and go to more liquid at the end of the ride so my stomach has all the blood it needs to break down food to energy.
Anyone tried mixing in some coconut water for added potassium as an alternative to salt tablets?
I guess the proof is in the results of the individual. Since I’ve switched over to the SL and solid foods, I no longer have rot gut at the end of a long ride. And I feel good. Much better than the results I was getting from gels and overly caloric sports drinks. Another thing that I like about SL is that I don’t get the flavor fatigue that I would get from things like that from PowerBar or Gatorade type formulas.
Am I saying that it is the end all/be all? No. But it has had a definitively positive effect on my training/racing. And isn’t that the real measure?
People are individuals, and 1 thing does not work for everyone. It’s like running shoes. You search and search for that pair that works for you. (And then they stop making it. LOL)
Agree 100%. If you have found a method that works for you, stick with it. The only rule I have is that if it’s not broken, don’t fix it & it looks like you found a method that’s not broken.
Initial claim: “too many calories in liquid form can lead to dehydration and poor absorbtion”
You you responded that this is incorrect and that “If your caloric intake is too high, replacing those calories w/a solid calorie source isn’t going to make this better, quite the opposite actually.”
Isn’t going to make what better?
Quite the opposite of what?
Isn’t going to make absorption of fluids better or won’t address the issue that caloric intake is too high?
In 99 out of 100 cases, replacing liquid calorie sources with an equivalent solid calorie source, is not going to improve dehydration or caloric absorption - *quite the opposite, *in that replacing liquid calories w/ solids will make absorption worse. It’s been my experience in the VAST majority of cases, an athlete’s ability to ingest calories is greatly improved when it’s in a liquid form.
Skratch drink mix doesn’t aim to address proper caloric intake… that’s a separate, but related issue. Their claim (as I understand it) is that high calorie drinks/gels inhibit fluid absorption. Is it this claim that you are saying is incorrect? If so, do you think that high calorie drinks may promote fluid absorption?
I agree that high calorie drinks/gels can inhibit absorption. What I disagree with is that an athlete would be better served replacing a high calorie liquid drink w/ an equivalent amount of solid food.
yeah. I would love to hear your explanation as I did the exact opposite of what you are suggesting Brian and have had zero nutritional issues and have had 2 pr’s (HIM and Oly distance). . I went from using a ton of gels and liquids for calorie source on the bike to using whole foods and using lighter calorie drinks and water for my hydration. I also use salt tabs. on the run I use water and on course energy drink together…zero issues. so if you could please explain what you are talking about. all you did was say something vague. intensity and HR levels are a huge factor in digestion as is decrease in blood volume due to dehydration/sodium issues. not trying to sound malicious…sorry. offer up an explanation since you are a nutrition expert.
I prefer to initially base my recommendations off of the rule and not the exception and your experience is the exception. It doesn’t make my recommendation better than yours or yours better than mine or the 10,000 other athletes racing IM, what I am saying is that your experience is not what the majority of athletes will encounter. James Cunnama has won IMF, Rev3 CedarPt & a 7:59 at Challenge Roth on a ridiculously high liquid calorie solution (nutrition outline posted HERE).
Would I recommend an athlete model their program after that? Not necessarily. Why? Because it won’t work for the majority of athletes.
Do I think he should change it? No…not until it doesn’t work.
At race intensity, the *rule *is that athletes can digest/process liquid calorie sources much better than they can an equivalent amount of solid calories. If this method has worked for you, great…you have no reason to change it. I have a # of athletes who are using a strategy that on paper, is counter to what we see in the majority of our athletes. As such, when another athlete asks for a recommendation especially on a forum where we’re speaking in broad/general terms, I prefer to look at what works in 99 out of 100 athletes vs directing that athlete towards the 1 out of 100.
While your method has worked for you & as such, I wouldn’t change a thing, the fact is that this method is not what we see work in the majority of athletes.
I think there is a couple of difference things to the low cal liquid/solid cals v high cal liquid choices. One that is Allan’s key point is trying to keep hydration and cals intake somewhat separate is that you can control how much extra cals you are putting into your system a the time based on how your stomach and intensity is at the time. This can and does work even if you only take on “liquids” and cyclist do this all the time. Intensity is another big difference between cycling and triathlon. Cycling you are, in general, ether usually all out or backed right off. You eat solids when its easy and turn to liquids when its hard. Triathlon is generally in the gray area between the too. Also my personal experience, working off feel, its harder to over eat with solid foods compared to high liquid cals. Sometimes with high cal liquid only approach there is no warning sings with over eating. In saying all that Mic Rogers does not consume solids or gels while racing, he uses 300cal bottles only.
Here is a complete objective comparison.
Chart showing differences when compared as a 12oz drink:
http://cdn.firstendurance.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Hydration-drink-comparison.pdf
The problem I have with EFS is that it just doesn’t taste very good. This goes for almost every major brand of drink mix out there. Skratch labs is the exception. (I haven’t tried Osmo.) I don’t know if it has to do with the “flavouring” that most drink mixes add. They all tend to have a similar, fake taste.
The key test for me is whether, several hours into the ride, I still want to drink what’s in my bottle. If I don’t, then it doesn’t matter what the ingredients are.
I can get to the end of a six hour ride and still want to drink Skratch labs.