Six weeks left to 10K, aim for PR sub 35, what to do?

Triathlon Forum
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Background: Usually I run about five days a week. Three or four days quite slow (11 km, 5 minutes per km) and one or two hard days (eg. 4-6 x 1 km, at 3:20 minutes per km or 4 x 2 km at sub 3:30), and rest the day before a race. All year long.

Could the collective wisdom of ST suggest something wiser the last six weeks in order to get a PR?

Add some Vo2 max work? Increased volume?

Would like to go 34.xx. Current PR is 35.03, but that was a few years ago when I was slightly more youngish.

As a fun experiment I will follow the (best) advice and report back!

Thanks!

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Hans, just some thoughts: maybe you could try to polarize your training a bit more? I know that model has gotten some recent critical attention. Basically, do a ton of low intensity work, and more very high intensity work than maybe you’re used to. Like VO2max or even higher. There’s an excellent video on canal.fr that was posted on this forum a few months ago, I’m sure you could find it.

In that vein, I personally have two suggestions. First, do intervals a lot short and more intense than these Km repeats. I’m talking 200-400m repeats. Really put in work at a level even higher than VO2 max. I know the much talked about Salazar has his athletes do a “300 breakdown”: 300, 2x200, 3x100 or something like that, with 2-1.5-1 minutes rest in between so you can really go hard on the repeats. And then do the whole thing 2-4 times. I know Salazar is more interested in the closing kick which obviously won’t be a factor for you but workouts like these reap huge rewards in terms of just strength as well as turnover and form when fatigued. Second, if you’re really serious about getting this PR, you could add an overreach block: anywhere from a few days to a week, but no more than 10 days, where you train harder and longer than is sustainable. Like run 2x/day for 4 days, for example, with one easy aerobic long-ish run in the morning and a hard LT or speed workout in the evening. Just put in a massive amount of volume+intensity all in a few days. And then bookend this training block with LOTS of rest, and listen to your body, and definitely not within 2-3 weeks of your race That should push you over the edge to PR. Just some thoughts.

3

What’s your total weekly mileage?

If you are only going to run 5 days per week and you are targeting 10K I would advise:
1 easy day needs to be a “long” run, 15-17K
Replace your 2 x 2k with a 1 x 20-24 minute at tempo (15K -20K race pace) and then just do an easier Farlech workout if you want to have two quality sessions per week.

Your main issue is probably lack of overall base, hence the long run and lack of threshold, hence the tempo run.

If you only have six weeks until race day, probably at most you can get in 3-4 tempos and 3-4 long runs, I would not advise doing tempo every week. I would usually work about 4 tempo runs from 20 minutes, building to 30-40 minutes over a 12-15 week training plan with some other workouts thrown in, but I usually stick to only 1 quality session per week because I am not typically targeting anything in particular.

4

Thanks.

Weekly mileage is around 37 miles (60 km). Have done this for about seven years. Also swim and bike.

Long run.
Yes, I can do this once a week during the next six weeks (15-20 km).

Replacing the 4 x 2 km with a tempo run.
Will consider it. Does ST agree?

5

Also swim and bike.

Well, then the obvious answer is if you want to PR in the 10K, stop this nonsense and just run;)

I tend to do focus blocks, I have been running about 40-45 miles a week lately, with just maybe 40K of biking thrown in. Running very well, but need to start dialing back on the run and get more bike. Hard to excel at both.

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I agree on the benefits of focused training periods. Biking is limited (once a week now) and I should not call that thing I occasionally do in the water swimming.

4 x 2 km starting at 3:30 and ending at 3:20 is, perhaps, similar to a tempo run. Maybe slightly too fast, but I just find it easier to focus when I break it up (on the treadmill).

Long run is a definite yes.

I am much more unsure about whether it is wise to add short and intense intervals in the last few weeks. For instance 3 x (3 x 100, 2 x 200, 1 x 300). Perhaps?

So the real question is: With six weeks left, should I add some more easy runs, or add a weekly session with short intervals.

In the grand scheme it does not mean much, but after failing to go sub 35 with a small margin a couple of times I am desperate enough to ask ST.

7

Hei Hans Olav

You are doing quite good. Keep two hard day a week and the rest easy. On you hard days try to get to around 30 minutes in Olympiatoppen’s L4. You are already doing that kind of training with your intervals, but maybe add more intervals on your 1,000m day.

Tror at du gjoer alt riktig. Du trenger ikke mere fart, men stoerre motor (det gjoer vi alle :wink:
Fortsett med det du gjoer, men etter det jeg leser saa boer en har rundt 30 minutter i intervall fart to ganger i uka. Intervallene skal likke i L4.

Lykke til, haaper du naar maalet ditt. Hvor skal du loepe?

Vennlig hilsen
Halvard

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just for fun I looked up the last time I went sub 35 - It was in the stone age, but…

My diary showed I had done for the 10 weeks leading up several track workouts doing 2k’s (usually 3 or 4) with the one about 10 days before the race in 6:47, two days later I did 16k on the track in exactly one hour. My notes said the race had lots of turns and might have been a tad long.

Not saying the above was the right thing to do. It’s the only data I have for an honest sub 35. My others were much faster, but a half decade before that when I would do repeat miles @ 5 min pace (as I recall).

Also I did this “block” after I finished the summer tri-season as more of a run focus.

Best of luck.

9

My 10K PR (34:19) came when I was training for a 1/2IM so IMO you don’ t need to quit swimming and cycling. I hit the track once a week in the 4 weeks leading up to the 10K (which was ~6-7 weeks before the 1/2IM) and generally ran 400m or 800m or 1000m repeats with 200m recovery jog/walk, usually around 6000-7000m total. I do remember that my typical repeat time for the 1000’s was 3:25. I don’t have my training log handy but I probably was running ~4 hours per week (I broke my leg when I was 2 and again at 27 and can’t run much more than 4 hours per week without issues). I was probably swimmingj 3-4 hours/week and cycling 6-8 hours/week.

I would do only one hard day per week and do some 600m or 800m repeats for one or two of them. If you like 2000m repeats, then go ahead and do them but I never do anything more than 1600m. And make one of those 3-4 slow days a fartlek or tempo run.

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imho, the 4-6 x 1 km is the best single workout for a 10k race. my pr is 35:10 and i was doing 5 x 1 km at 3:25 to 3:30 with 1:30. that said, you have done lots of n x 1 km and would likely benefit from doing training other systems. as other people suggested, shorter intervals will help. they are good for training leg speed and form/technique. for example, 15 x 300 with 1:00 to jog the next 100m.

IF the race course is hilly and you have been doing lots of treadmill running, then go outside and get used to running on roads and in iffy weather. even if the course is flat and you have been mostly on the treadmill, go outside and get used to it.

i don’t think the 2km repeats are mch like tempo runs. each interval is less than 6 minutes. maybe once a week, do 20 minutes at 3:50 to 4:00 / km.

your long runs are now 11-ish km. i wouldn’t increase that too much too quickly. maybe a couple of weeks at 14 or so and a couple at 15-16.

I’ld keep running 6 days a week, maybe something like:
monday - rest
tuesday - intervals. w/u, 20 minutes worth of 300m to 400m intervals, c/d.
wednesday - 8 - 9 km at 5:00/km
thursday - 50 minutes with 20 w/u, 20 tempo, 15 c/d
friday - 8 - 9 km at 5:00/km
saturday - 10 - 11 km on a hilly route
sunday - longer run. two weeks at 13-14. two weeks at 15-16. then one week before the race, do only 12k.

caveat: i am not a coach and i can’t even run very well any more. i’m just procrastinating on cleaning the house :slight_smile:

11

If you have six weeks left then you have time to add a tempo run per week and have a long run too. I found out that I have good front end speed. I can bang out much faster 400’s/800’s/1ks rather then holding a good 5k/10k time. I noticed last year once I started adding a tempo run once per week I saw some real improvements and PR’d a 5k in the middle of a build by 57 seconds.

Really all my tempos consisted of were along the lines of 2x12 or 2x15 with a 2-3 minute rest in between. Once I started doing 2x18 things got too hard.

12

If you have six weeks left then you have time to add a tempo run per week and have a long run too. I found out that I have good front end speed. I can bang out much faster 400’s/800’s/1ks rather then holding a good 5k/10k time. I noticed last year once I started adding a tempo run once per week I saw some real improvements and PR’d a 5k in the middle of a build by 57 seconds.

Really all my tempos consisted of were along the lines of 2x12 or 2x15 with a 2-3 minute rest in between. Once I started doing 2x18 things got too hard.

Why break it up? If you are doing 2 x 12m instead of 1 x 24m it is only for a mental break. That is the beauty of the longer tempo, it really sharpens your mental focus to stay in the zone for 20-30 minutes without a break.

13

Tempo runs are useful and OK outside, but boring on the treadmill. That is why I tend to to do 4 x 2k at 3:30 per km with about 1-2 minutes in between during the winter. The session is about one hour long and has about 30 minutes of hard work. The idea, in addition to not being bored, is to be able to run hard for a relatively long time without accumulating too much acid (= have breaks).

A tempo session would also be about one hour, but with up to 40 minutes of work at a speed slightly below 3:40 per km.

So the comparison is between about 40 minutes with no breaks at 3:40 per km and roughly 30 minutes at 3:30 with breaks for a race in which I would like to run at 3:28 per km.

Somewhat slower, slightly longer, no breaks.

OK, I am willing to try!

Luckily the snow has disappeared so I do not have to do this on the treadmill.

Thanks!

14

Short race report: 35:44 (96th OA, 15th AG M40-44, about 10 000 participants)

Longer: Garmin times per km: 4:05 (crowded start), 3:27, 3:35, 3:24, 3:34, 3:29, 3:22 (downhill), 3:33, 3:47 (uphill), 3:30.

I actually followed some of the advice. Included a longer run every week, replaced one of my weekly intervals with a tempo run and even did a little bit of speed work.

Conclusion
Need to run more miles!
40 miles or 60 km a week is not enough to run a sub 35 minute 10K for me.
Just miles, not intervals. Or at least the intervals should be more endurance focused. More and longer, not 4-6 x 1k at speeds slightly faster than threshold.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

15

Short race report: 35:44 (96th OA, 15th AG M40-44, about 10 000 participants)

Longer: Garmin times per km: 4:05 (crowded start), 3:27, 3:35, 3:24, 3:34, 3:29, 3:22 (downhill), 3:33, 3:47 (uphill), 3:30.

I actually followed some of the advice. Included a longer run every week, replaced one of my weekly intervals with a tempo run and even did a little bit of speed work.

Conclusion
Need to run more miles!
40 miles or 60 km a week is not enough to run a sub 35 minute 10K for me.
Just miles, not intervals. Or at least the intervals should be more endurance focused. More and longer, not 4-6 x 1k at speeds slightly faster than threshold.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

I would not “conclude” too much yet. Based on what you showed, you lost around 35 second in the crowd in the first kilometer. That really sucks…you can’t gain back 4 seconds per kilometer for the next 9 at your race speed. 35 min 10K is 3:30 per K, so most of your kilometers need to be in the 3:27 range for a bit of a safety factor for the uphill/headwind sections. You are almost there.

Also on this thread, no one mentioned your size, but just losing 5 lbs puts you in the 3:27 range versus 3:30 range. No need to change any training, just put less food in your mouth. But if you are going to change your training, I think the 1K repeats at 3:20 pace are fine. That is 80 second 400m pace. Just out of curiosity, what is your max 400m speed and 1 mile speed ? Maybe all you need to do is lose the 5 lbs and add a 10-15x400m @ 75-77 seconds with 100m cruise in between. It sounds like you are already taking care of the threshold type workouts, and I think in this triathlon crowd that is all we need to focus on, but for pure running, there is something to be said about going faster than 10K pace and getting your brain/neuro system tuned to maintaining good form/stride efficiency with greater range of motion. More mileage is always helpful but in your case for your goals, it may not be required, if you can just pick a race with a less crowded start and just drop a few pounds.

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152 pounds. Six feet tall.

400 repeats in about 70-75 seconds. 4-6 repeats. Do not know max speed. Less than 67!

1 k in about 3:08 when I do VO2Max work (threadmill, 1% gradient). About 3-4 repeats with two minutes in between.

Despite the slow and crowded opening, the overall average was a little worse in the second half (3:35 in the last 5 k vs. 3:34 in the first 5 k). Fading after a slow opening indicates lack of endurance. Not a lot, but enough to think that perhaps I should focus more on endurance. More miles, more repeats, not faster.