Should I leave my current squad and go to learn total immersion?

Triathlon Forum
1

I’ve been training at the squad of my university’s triathlon club for a year, which is my first year with formal training (apart from a few beginner lessons before). However, I cannot get my expected improvement over the year, specifically my 1.5 km T/T has stuck for half a year. The only thing that improved a lot is my endurance.

When I started last October, my 1.5 km T/T was 0:32:06. As I did not have any formal swim training before, I suspect that my technique was seriously wrong. I was hoping to get my 1.5 km time within 30 minutes by last year end, and perhaps 25 - 27 minutes this year. However I didn’t make my target by the end of the year. In February I did a swim smooth video analysis session with my squad coach and my swim was really mediocre. Just before that my 1.5 km T/T was 0:31:12. My coach identified many problems on me, like scissor legs, over rotation, bad hand entry, head too low, pressing down in front of stroke, etc. I then worked on these things, as a result, my endurance was vastly improved, before that I got tired after maybe 3 km, and after a few months I completed a 13 km marathon swimming race.

However, I was swimming at the same slow speed as before, my latest 1.5 km T/T was 0:31:03 (a mere 9 seconds faster than February). The endurance improvement only means I’m less exhausted by the end of the 1.5 km, but I can’t swim faster.

Also, my squad coach always tell me to spin my arms faster and faster. Even when I’m tired. Even when I can’t hold my form. I’ve told her that my goal is to do rough water marathon swimming in cold water and need something that is sustainable for 10+ or even 15+ km. When I joined the squad initially, my stroke rate was about 56 - 58 spm, but she wants me to swim at least 64 spm or even more. She thinks that glide is a dirty word and, by stroking faster, my technique improves as the deadspots are hidden. I also think that my form is better when I’m stroking faster, but the problem is that, I can’t sustain that high stroke rate for better form for more than a few hundred metres! Another problem is that, I’m a cold water swimmer and if I increase the stroke rate, I will get overheated easily in the middle of summer and have to slow down, and I always complain about the heat. I sometimes count strokes but I still need more than 60 strokes per 50 m length, which I think is not good. However, the coach basically tells me to HTFU and stroke faster. By stroking faster, although I really swim faster, I enter another aerobic level which isn’t sustainable for 1.5 km, and I don’t want brute-forcing my whole swim.

Therefore I begin to doubt if the methodology of this squad works on me, and if I should change to another place which teaches total immersion instead. My training goal in the coming winter is to get my long distance time down and do another marathon swimming race in cold water. Will total immersion work for my scenario?

2

No!

3

If you want to get slower by all means go do total immersion.

4

You shouldn’t expect to swim like swimmers who’ve been doing it for 10+ years after 1 year of training. Give it another 5 years of 20+k week and then check in again.

5

***The endurance improvement only means I’m less exhausted by the end of the 1.5 km, but I can’t swim faster. ***

Huh?

Next time you swim the TT, aim to be more exhausted at the end. That’s the idea of the TT, its the maximal effort you can sustain for that distance. Increase your turnover to the point that you can maintain for 1500m.

6

However, I was swimming at the same slow speed as before, my latest 1.5 km T/T was 0:31:03 (a mere 9 seconds faster than February). The endurance improvement only means I’m less exhausted by the end of the 1.5 km, but I can’t swim faster.

Also, my squad coach always tell me to spin my arms faster and faster. Even when I’m tired. Even when I can’t hold my form. I**'ve told her that my goal is to do rough water marathon swimming in cold water and need something that is sustainable for 10+ or even 15+ km.**

Sounds like your coach gave you guidance on how to swim a faster 1.5k, and you pushed back saying your goal wasn’t to swim a faster 1.5k but to do marathon swimming. Which do you want? Your coach trying to get you from high-50’s to mid-60’s for stroke rate seems like sound advice. It may feel drastic, but it’s not. That said, at 60+ SPL, it sounds like there’s still plenty of room for technique improvements as well. What’s your coach say about that? And is there any progression to your training at higher stroke rates? You’re not likely to go from 57 to 64 SPM on long swims just because you want to. You gotta start by doing sets of 50’s, then 100’s, then 150’s, etc. Maybe you take an intermediate step like 50’s at 61 SPM, then 100’s at 61SPM and 50’s at 64SPM, then 150’s at 61SPM and 100’s at 64SPM, etc.

7

How many times a week do you swim?

8

Sounds like your coach in on the right track, it is your impatience that needs a check. Like Jason said, it is not a fair comparison if you dont drill each TT the same. And keep in mind, some days you just dont have it either. Maybe throw in a test set too with those 1500 it’s, another benchmark to measure by. Something like 10x100 with 20 to 30 seconds rest, best average?

You certainly have some stroke improvement room it feels like, so work on both fitness and stroke, plenty of swimming in a workout to do both…And keep in mind, that changes made to your stroke, can take months, sometimes years to fully kick in. Major flaws can be fixed to some extent overnight, but others just take time. Video is the best tool, because what you think you are doing, vs what your are actually doing, are often very far apart. It is about visualization, and AOS swimmers dont have that, so video is a great substitute.

9

visualization, and AOS swimmers dont have that, so video is a great substitute.

Shit, I still think I look different than what I actually do, and I’ve been at this for a REALLY long time.

I dunno what the OP’s training habits are like, but one observation I’ve had of a lot of triathletes and AOS’s is that they seem to be afraid to fail at a set. I fail all the time in practice, sometimes spectacularly. It’s how you learn where that line is and push it forward.

10

they seem to be afraid to fail at a set. //

Failure in swim practice, is winning…

11

I’ve been training at the squad of my university’s triathlon club for a year, which is my first year with formal training (apart from a few beginner lessons before). However, I cannot get my expected improvement over the year, specifically my 1.5 km T/T has stuck for half a year. The only thing that improved a lot is my endurance.

When I started last October, my 1.5 km T/T was 0:32:06. As I did not have any formal swim training before, I suspect that my technique was seriously wrong. I was hoping to get my 1.5 km time within 30 minutes by last year end, and perhaps 25 - 27 minutes this year. However I didn’t make my target by the end of the year. In February I did a swim smooth video analysis session with my squad coach and my swim was really mediocre. Just before that my 1.5 km T/T was 0:31:12. My coach identified many problems on me, like scissor legs, over rotation, bad hand entry, head too low, pressing down in front of stroke, etc. I then worked on these things, as a result, my endurance was vastly improved, before that I got tired after maybe 3 km, and after a few months I completed a 13 km marathon swimming race.

However, I was swimming at the same slow speed as before, my latest 1.5 km T/T was 0:31:03 (a mere 9 seconds faster than February). The endurance improvement only means I’m less exhausted by the end of the 1.5 km, but I can’t swim faster.

Also, my squad coach always tell me to spin my arms faster and faster. Even when I’m tired. Even when I can’t hold my form. I’ve told her that my goal is to do rough water marathon swimming in cold water and need something that is sustainable for 10+ or even 15+ km. When I joined the squad initially, my stroke rate was about 56 - 58 spm, but she wants me to swim at least 64 spm or even more. She thinks that glide is a dirty word and, by stroking faster, my technique improves as the deadspots are hidden. I also think that my form is better when I’m stroking faster, but the problem is that, I can’t sustain that high stroke rate for better form for more than a few hundred metres! Another problem is that, I’m a cold water swimmer and if I increase the stroke rate, I will get overheated easily in the middle of summer and have to slow down, and I always complain about the heat. I sometimes count strokes but I still need more than 60 strokes per 50 m length, which I think is not good. However, the coach basically tells me to HTFU and stroke faster. By stroking faster, although I really swim faster, I enter another aerobic level which isn’t sustainable for 1.5 km, and I don’t want brute-forcing my whole swim.

Therefore I begin to doubt if the methodology of this squad works on me, and if I should change to another place which teaches total immersion instead. My training goal in the coming winter is to get my long distance time down and do another marathon swimming race in cold water. Will total immersion work for my scenario?

Your coach identified at least 5 major stroke flaws in february. It is difficult to change that many things in a short period of time. Often it is 2 steps forward and one back. I think you need more time as others have said. Total immersion is not your solution.

12

In case your comment about TI wasn’t totally tongue-in-cheek I thought I’d directly address that. I think you’ll get close to 100% hell no response on here for taking that route. TI’s strength is getting someone off the couch and swimming competently. But you’re clearly well past the point where TI would help you as it’s not great at getting someone faster than, say, 2:00 per 100. So your better options are to stick with what you’re doing or find a masters group or find a different private coach. (Obviously your options are directly affected by your location and bank account.) As others have said, it does sound like you are making some progress, it just takes time.

BTW, you’ll get different answers from different people, but the open-water marathoners I know go with shorter strokes at a higher rate, like 80+, depending on conditions. So if your life goal is to things like some of the Oceans Seven then working hard on your stroke rate now is a great idea.

13

My two cents is that a lower stroke rate requires great contact in the catch phase of the stroke and big time engagement of your back/ arms to pull harder all the way through. I believe that requires building up of the muscle efficiency/ memory that has been developed over long periods of time. The catch is the most important part as you’ll need to pull a lot of water. My stroke isn’t perfect in everyone’s eyes, but it is efficient and my mechanics are good.

I’ve been swimming since before I could walk, I’m tall (6’3), and have developed a longer, slower stroke/ glide over time. In a build up for a long swim, I would institute a lot of paddle work using big paddles to help enhance the focus on building the pull muscles while focusing on the catch. This is not something I would recommend to everyone.

Are your TT’s in the pool? If so, how are your walls? That could be a great place to pick up considerable time. Surely doesn’t translate to open water, but sets up each length for maintaining a better pace with a good fast turn and solid push off.

The final piece for me is, I believe you have to push yourself to a high level of discomfort and maintain that for a long period of time. As Monty and Jason mentioned, I have to be willing to push to failure.

To answer your question, I don’t think TI will make you faster.

jake

14

Just small observation low stroke rate just costed me my first Ironman. I DNFed on the swim due to very strong head on current that came in.
Current was much stronger then my propulsion and i believe if my stroke rate would be higher maybe and just maybe i would have a chance. Just my 2 cents.

15

I tried Total Immersion in my early days as a triathlete and as mostly as adult onset swimmer (I did swim team ages 8 and 9 and then raced in local yocal races in my teens). TI is interesting, I liked a lot of the philosophy and glad I learned the technique. (I can swim a long way without getting tired using TI.) However, it’s slower, as you can see from the responses to your question, and I abandoned the technique quickly.

Sounds like you are making progress. Improving your endurance is a great sign.

I loved the response of “failing in the pool is success” – not meeting my goal splits has caused me to back off of hard training in the water.

16

Find a coach that tells you what you want to hear and go with that. This process can be done over a coffee and muffin.

17

they seem to be afraid to fail at a set. //

Failure in swim practice, is winning…

Probably true that we don’t like to fail a set. Not even sure what failing a set would be like. Is it like being 5 seconds off on your 100s?

If either you or Jason could describe how bad failing a swim workout/set could be and it still help the AOS, that might be rather liberating.

18

they seem to be afraid to fail at a set. //

Failure in swim practice, is winning…

This is great

19

Simple - “failure” means that you are unable to continue to hit the target times. It’s the overload portion of the overload, recover, and supercompensation cycle.

It helps AOS in the same way it helps YOS, you set stretch goals and if you do that properly, such that they are truly stretch goals, then you won’t be able to achieve them all of the time. If you always hit your targets, make the interval, or whatever it is, then you aren’t pushing your limits.

20

And to take Jason’s thought one step further, it could be a target swim time, or an interval. For instance, you do a set of 15x 100’s on a 1;30 and you goal is to hold 1;15’s. A real swimmer does it until he fails, then sits out a minute to recover and begins again. So you might ask, what if you make all 15 of them under the 1;15, isnt that the goal? NO!!! But if you happen to make it all the way through, then you get to either tighten up the interval to 1;25, or you reduce the time swam to 1;14.

You see you are supposed to fail, that is how you get the most out of these kind of sets. Probably not a good idea to fail more than 3 times, just means you set the swim time or interval too fast, so back it down.

There is a famous set that old swimmers did/do, called beat the clock. Of course depends on your speed and abilities, but it goes like this. Start at 2 minutes(or whatever, some fast guys start at 1;30) and do a 100 yards. Then at 1;59 you go again, then 1;58, and on and on, one second off the interval each time. This is a great set, as it teaches not only endurance, but it makes you consider the early super easy swims, and how to do them. Because the goal is to get as far as you can, not an average time. Most people start off way too fast, even though it seems like a crawl, as it should.

The set is a failure set, there is no making it, and this is what builds up great swimmers. Make sense now?