I had scheduled today a 30 min run and 40 mile bike but with fatigued legs after my long bike yesterday I decided to run first so that my legs didn’t blowout after the bike. I felt good on the run and good on the bike so decided to do a quick additional 5 minute transition run after the 40 mile bike just to get the legs moving off the bike. Is there any benefit to a 5 minute transition run and/or what would be the shortest run distance off the bike to actually be effective?
define effective. After all we may have different meanings.
effective at what as posted above? I find a short run even 1 or 2 minutes off the bike effective at loosening the legs up a bit. I swear My legs feel better faster after a very short run following a long bike of 80+ miles than they do without.
As far as purpose of a transition run especially in IM training after a long bike is just to make sure you had your nutritional pacing correct during the ride. If your low on fuel and fading 5 minutes into the run you did not do so good. If you get through 20-30 minutes of running feeling pretty good then you should follow what you did that day on race day. Other than that is a 20-30 minute run really going to do much for you in terms of fitness when you have to run 26.2 off the bike in the race? Probably not. The real divedends in that case come from your 2+ hour runs, and tempo sessions. Now for short course racing a 20-30 minute run off a 40 mile bike building to race pace for the last 5-10 minutes would be very effective. Effective all depends on your goals in the distance of race you do.
I guess I mean effective in terms of developing the legs to function well off the bike so that they do not feel really heavy out of transition. These type of short run bricks would not have the purpose of being a race similuated workout, trying to determine proper pace/hr for the run off the bike or to hammer down nutrition plan; it would just be to imrpove run strength, function and form off the bike. Primarily training for IM distance; doing number 7 and 8 this summer.
I very often try to do a HARD 5-10 minutes right off the bike; I sometimes even just do 5 out then turn around an jog it in, for a total of ~12 minutes. This is obviously not going to improve run fitness much, but rather is just to help with those tough first few minutes after T2. I think it’s quite effective at this; part of it could just be mental, i.e. practicing running hard after a bike so you know how much it’s going to hurt on race day.
The caveat is that my primary focus is short course; I’d imagine that for IM, miles 18-26 are going to be more of a determining factor than miles 1-2, so not sure how effective short hard efforts off the bike would be for you. Just my $0.02.
I guess I mean effective in terms of developing the legs to function well off the bike so that they do not feel really heavy out of transition. These type of short run bricks would not have the purpose of being a race similuated workout, trying to determine proper pace/hr for the run off the bike or to hammer down nutrition plan; it would just be to imrpove run strength, function and form off the bike. Primarily training for IM distance; doing number 7 and 8 this summer.
the short answer… there is no such thing as developing the legs to function well off the bike. Proper pacing and nutrition combine with good bike and running fitness will do that.
so you can train all year long in a smart way and not do one single brick in training and still do a pb marathon off the bike. Brick are simply convinent time wise and to teach you about pacing… they arent essential/needed for succesfull running off the bike.
As others have mentioned the term “effective” is a touchy one. I like to do bricks until the “weird” feeling is no longer weird. Even if the benefit is only psychological… that’s a valid benefit to me.
Ditto what JonnyO said. There’s nothing magic that happens in a brick workout. Do them if you simply want to get used to the feeling, work on transitions, practice a little form, work on pace, save time, etc. However, there’s nothing that happens running after that bike ride that’ll equate to any significant physiological improvements.
So, if you want to do a 5 minute run after a ride, go for it.
Two weeks ago I posted a request for a detailed and physiological explanation of the benefits of doing bricks.
The majority of the responses incl. the authoritative ones, basically stated that there is not one aside from the psychological benefit of knowing from experience that the “dead” feeling goes away.
Since the benefit is mostly psychological, I would say that any distance (measured in time) that is 1 minute less than whatever distance you really don’t want to run after your bike ride is NOT effective.
So in your case, the 5 minute run was not as effective as doing your 30 minute run after your 40 mile bike ;^)
Triathlon training is in my view a single sport that happens to consist of three elements. And because the distances and course topography of the races one is preparing for are so variable, the emphasis factors of one athletes training program will differ from another’s. Not to mention that the weakness area of one may the be strength of another. Plus of course we all are just an experiment of one. What works for me may be disaster for you, and vice a versa.
Now with that said, because of the sport and the need to immediately be able to run off the bike, I brick continuously during the course of a training block. That doesn’t mean I don’t do recovery rides with no running (usually on a fixed-gear bike). The added benefit for me is that cycling loosens up the legs nicely for running and may prevent injury. I don’t have to worry about warming-up for a mile before opening up the throttle as a pure runner must do. You can go right to pace.
Generally, the shorter the bike, the more intense the pacing, both bike and run. Mix it up. I also have been doing what Brad Kearn’s recommends and that is the ocassional long-distance brick. A few weeks ago did a 88/8. The run pace much slower than a 20/2. That block also included a 40/6 and a 60/4.
The shortest brick I do is a 10/1. I call it my “prolouge brick”. On the TT bike then a good hard mile. That one is fun.
I brick continuously during the course of a training block
And so let me ask this, aw f*ck it never mind, I can’t deal with it today. BarryP this is all you.
You missed the training block part. I also didn’t mention the recovery blocks in between or the evening swim sessions during the training blocks (but that is a different story) or the open water swim workouts.
That’s what fun about the sport…having FUN and doing occasional wild stuff and not being just a human spreadsheet.
And seeing the fruits of one’s labor so to speak.
Like yesterday. St. George. Have never been a very good swimmer but this year took Kearn’s advice. Told myself to become a “student of swimming”. Out of a field of 115, 3rd out of the water, 7th overall (i’m closer to 50 than 45 by the way). The bike and run OK but as the TT numbers start coming down so will that aspect improve.
As far as swimming, I have never read of or heard of developing sprint start speed from a deep water position. So I figured that one out on my own. Whenever I do sprint sets in the pool (once a week), the 50s and 100s are NOT started from the blocks or even from a wall pushoff. They start as do most triathlons, from treading water. I do the 50s on 2 at 31. If you have then a good hard aerobic pace to throttle back to, you don’t have to worry about 90% of the field in most triathlon swims?
Or is it all wrong?
Doesn’t matter. I am 100% convinced that my program that revolves around improving aerobic power is correct…plus of course some anaerobic work like going for bike TT PRs followed by tempo running sub race pace. Crazy shit ain’t it.
why is there a trend for all the “authorities” to dis the brick???
Sure, JohnnyO and desertdude may be soooo good, that it has lost its effetiveness, but most triathletes are not at your level.
As far as nothing pshysiological happening, how can there not be? Many different muscles are tired after a bike ride and running on those “tired” legs is different than running on fresh legs and different than running on legs fatigued by running.
Are you saying that if you coached a beginner to intermediate triathlete, you’d only have bricks in the training plan for their time efficiency?
why is there a trend for all the “authorities” to dis the brick???
Sure, JohnnyO and desertdude may be soooo good, that it has lost its effetiveness, but most triathletes are not at your level.
As far as nothing pshysiological happening, how can there not be? Many different muscles are tired after a bike ride and running on those “tired” legs is different than running on fresh legs and different than running on legs fatigued by running.
Are you saying that if you coached a beginner to intermediate triathlete, you’d only have bricks in the training plan for their time efficiency?
it s not a question of authorities or been good. It’s a simple physiology concept that applie to begginer, intermediate or pro.
Running is running, that you are tired or not, it s the same muscle that are working. There is no such thing as different muscle working when you run off the bike. if you have done the proper training on the run and bike, and you pace well your effort…running will be succesfull in races that you have done bricks or not…
i give brick to athlete for race simulation, time constraint and for there comfidence, learn pacing, nutrition. But they most do brick only in the last few weeks before a race.
As far as nothing pshysiological happening, how can there not be? Many different muscles are tired after a bike ride and running on those “tired” legs is different than running on fresh legs and different than running on legs fatigued by running.
of course there is physiological activity going on. You are training. The reason you may get faster is b/c you are training not b/c you happen to be doing a brick. As for teaching yourself to run on tired legs well let me be blunt. Unless you do not know how to run at all, not at all, then yes, the first time you ever run, if it is off the bike then maybe you are teaching yourself to run on tired legs. Have you ever run before? Then you already know how to run (and even how to run on tired legs…omg completely amazing!) and you are not teaching yourself anything new.
The main reasons you run slower off the bike and/or it’s different has to do with glycogen depletion, perphireal fatigue, fluid loss etc, in other words bio-chemical reasons not bio-mechanical reasons.
No one is trying to “dis the brick”. We are trying to tell you that doing a ton of bricks, and using those to get faster instead of properly designing a program where you do faster running when you are fresh and can achieve higher velocities is stupid.
Ok, forget the brick, I want to refer to the other post about poster who rides to work and has heavy legs. My legs feel like they are always heavy when training – I bike just about every day. I used to run almost every day, but then I started getting injured, now I run 4 times a week. I replaced the running with biking. I feel like if you are a an ironman athlete and are putting in the necessary hours, you never feel fresh except for a race when you have done a decent taper. I have a 40 hr a week job and miserable commute, so I try to sneak in workouts whenever, wherever I can. I usually don’t care if my legs are tired or not, I just do it. Do I have some slow, difficult runs? Sure, but I figure it’s better to get it in the miles rather than blow it off and wait until I am “fresh”.
Is what you guys are saying make the run your first workout each day? This isn’t always practical for me, but I guess it’s worth a shot to see if I see improvement.
Is what you guys are saying make the run your first workout each day?
Yes, if you care about getting faster, you should do your quality run as the first workout of the day. If you don’t care or are just out to have fun etc, do whatever you want.
Alright, what about the neural patterns associated with changing activities? I agree that being a good runner is the best way to run well after T2. But your CNS has to “learn” how to change from one motor activity to another and the brick is the best way to “learn” that skill. FWIW, I personally feel best in races if I’ve been doing at least a few 2 sport transitions in the weeks leading up to race season. For this aspect of training I don’t know the optimal run time, but I doubt that it has to be very long.
seriously dude you are looking for the 1% solution when the 99% solution is to do your quality run workouts when fresh. and probably run more volume and with more consistency, but I digress.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
here is some research showing that bricks may make you faster over the first 333m but then I’d wager that someone with superior running abiltiy is going to run your ass down over the next 21km or 9.9km. But hey, that is just my opinion after coaching for 12+ yrs and racing for 16+yrs
As for feeling in races, I’m not much of a touchy feely guy (or so I’ve been told), what did your run splits say about your run training? Can you objectively tell if the bricks made you faster or not?
(and I’m not saying don’t do them, I’m just saying that running faster requires running faster)