There seem to be two schools on this. Swift, Hogg and Pruitt recommend wedging either in shoe or between cleat and shoe to inhibit lateral travel of the knee throughout the pedal stroke. The idea is that the movement of the knee is an efficiency limiter and can cause pain/discomfort/injury. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Swift quoted as saying nearly every fit he does involves wedging. The Trek fit gurus, Sylvester and Dr Timmerman (the only fellow here who is an MD) are not convinced by the efficiency argument and do not consider
lateral knee movement (within reason) to be an injury risk. Their position is wedge rarely and cautiously.
The notion that it’s more efficient for the knee to track evenly up and down makes sense logically to me, but is there any actual clinical evidence that it produces more power? As for the wedge-with-extreme-caution argument, this makes sense to me also-“correcting” natural bio-mechanics can cause all kinds of other problems, so why do it if there’s no gain in efficiency?
I’ve looked for any independent studies on the this and can’t find anything. Anyone know of any clinical trials here?
Any personal anecdotal experiences with one or the other approach?
Yes, there is a trial going on right now via Children’s Hospital and the University of Cincinnati (cleat wedging, knee motion in trained cyclists (Cat 3 up) with 6 camera, 3-D motion analysis with force measurements. Study is running along with ACL injuries in girls soccer and foot ball concussion injuries - all “hot” topics). I’m involved in the cycling study.
Can’t divulge much, but I will/can say that even with extreme varus cleat wedging (8+ degrees), that under load this had LESS affect on knee tracking than myself (and the principle investigators) theorized - hard to double blind here. It appears that after wedging, the knee still still tended to tracking in/dive to the toptube (for example only) and that the subtalar joint adapted for the cleat wedging. There was little change in force measurements. Seat height played a much more important roll in knee tracking.
Well, that teaser is pretty fascinating. Please elaborate when you feel it’s appropriate.
As a fitter I’ve been dubious about the wedge-first-ask-questions-later approach- but I’m proceeding with an open mind. I would really like to see what the strong ST minds might contribute to this conversation. I would say if you are interested in bike fit, you are interested in this topic!
Thank you.
The reason I wedged my shoes is the because my left knee was going in towards the top tube on the down stroke and then out on the upstroke. This was causing pain in my hip. It was much more pronounced in my left leg than my right.
By shimming my shoe it kept my knee going up and down instead of banging into the top tube. Now could I have accomplished this by mearly thinking about it and stopping myself from doing it? That’s possible…
On another note…I haven’t shimmed my MTB shoes but those cleats are pretty small.
I also wonder if tracking would not be improved by simply looking for imbalances in the legs and focusing on 1 legged exercises for correction, doing away with the issue altogether?
It is a similar thought process to orthotics or motion control shoes in running. You strengthen the weakness and can ditch the corrective devices. At least that is what happened with me. I am curious if the guys at UVA are looking at this as well. They have a similar set up with the 3D cameras, etc.
Cycling for 28 years…allways had hip pain at/near 50 miles. Yes, I did 1 legged exercises, they didn’t do away with the issue. Personally I don’t think 1 legged drills do anything but teach you how to rock you hips to pull up on the pedals.
Shimmed my cleats in 2003 and hip pain went away. Could I have strengthened the weakness? Yes, maybe. I also started running in 2003, that could contribute to the solution too.
When I get a new pair of shoes I allways try them without shims in them, they feel odd and my left knee does wacky stuff. I put the shim in (Look pedals) and everything goes back to normal.
Cycling for 28 years…allways had hip pain at/near 50 miles. Yes, I did 1 legged exercises, they didn’t do away with the issue. Personally I don’t think 1 legged drills do anything but teach you how to rock you hips to pull up on the pedals.
Shimmed my cleats in 2003 and hip pain went away. Could I have strengthened the weakness? Yes, maybe. I also started running in 2003, that could contribute to the solution too.
When I get a new pair of shoes I allways try them without shims in them, they feel odd and my left knee does wacky stuff. I put the shim in (Look pedals) and everything goes back to normal.
No, not the 1 legged pedal drills, I am talking squats, dead lifts, leg presses. Balance drills on 1 leg to help with adductor and abduction strength.
My experience was once I got that ironed out the hip pain stopped immediately and my running paces went up quite a bit. I also have better leg strength to generate more power on a ride.
I second Allie’s experience, worked with a PT last year to improve hip flexibility and strength and now knee pain is no longer a problem. I also worked with my LBS on my fit and have eliminated (most) of my knee wobble through cleat position and seat height. I still have a slight imbalance of strength left to right which I am addressing through strength training as prescribed by my PT & hopefully when I have balanced strength should have completely eliminated the knee wobble.
Interesting that you should be posting this thread now. I have a measured Left leg length discrepancy of about 5 mm in the femur. I have shimmed my cleats according to Dr. Pruitt’s suggestions, which is approximately half the leg length discrepancy.
Now, while riding on the track with my coach behind me (Colby Pearce) he mentioned that at high efforts my Right Knee becomes unstable, tracking inward and outward. On a subsiquent Kilo attempt, I actually hit the right chainstay with my heal because my knee was tracking inward - Now I have become aware of it.
Gonna get an appointment with Dr Pruitt at BCSM to determine what’s up and I will report back when I get the answer.
Given the geometry, it seems like dealing with a femur discrepancy might be a more difficult problem. Because you can’t shim in-line with the femur where you really need it. Just a thought…
Cycling for 28 years…allways had hip pain at/near 50 miles. Yes, I did 1 legged exercises, they didn’t do away with the issue. Personally I don’t think 1 legged drills do anything but teach you how to rock you hips to pull up on the pedals.
Shimmed my cleats in 2003 and hip pain went away. Could I have strengthened the weakness? Yes, maybe. I also started running in 2003, that could contribute to the solution too.
When I get a new pair of shoes I allways try them without shims in them, they feel odd and my left knee does wacky stuff. I put the shim in (Look pedals) and everything goes back to normal.
I think that’s worth a lot! You have a system that works. My aim in starting this thread is not to debunk wedging, but to start a conversation, and experience such as yours is a great contribution. My hunch is that wedging is over-prescribed by fitters, but again, I’m trying to figure it all out so am keeping an open mind. And am certainly not suggesting its all nonsense.
The separation between wedging to ease/eliminate pain and wedging to become more efficient and produce more power is critical. The poster who is working to eliminate “knee wobble” touches on this. My question to you would be why are you trying to control how your knee tracks (eliminate knee wobble)? What is your coach’s rationale for pursuing this?
ps-there is probably an aero dimension to this also-but I don’t have any good thoughts yet. Anyone else?