I’m curious if anyone has legit info comparing the relative drag of a lace up shoe with a good aero sock vs a similar shoe with Boa or ratchet closures, and a shoe cover?
TIA
I’m sure a few here can offer real estimates. I’ll start with 7-10 watts as a funny.
https://www.thomasgerlach.com/2016/05/fastest-ironman-bike-shoes-aerodynamics.html
i did it with a much cheaper pair of Louis Garneau LA84 shoes. worked great.
https://www.thomasgerlach.com/2016/05/fastest-ironman-bike-shoes-aerodynamics.html
i did it with a much cheaper pair of Louis Garneau LA84 shoes. worked great.
I’ve seen that before, but it doesn’t address the comparison with a shoe and shoe cover. Of course laces are better than bulky straps or Boas. I’m looking at it from the perspective of a road TTer, not triathlete, so the concern over the time it takes to put on shoe covers is irrelevant to me.
https://www.thomasgerlach.com/2016/05/fastest-ironman-bike-shoes-aerodynamics.html
i did it with a much cheaper pair of Louis Garneau LA84 shoes. worked great.
What did you do to the Louis Garneau LA84 ?
I’ve never seen data on it. My guess is that it’s negligible with the covers potentially being slightly faster. If you really want to know for sure, then I’d suggest doing your own testing.
I’ve never seen data on it. My guess is that it’s negligible with the covers potentially being slightly faster. If you really want to know for sure, then I’d suggest doing your own testing.
If I had the requisite ability to accurately do such a test, I wouldn’t have asked. Surely someone with the skills has already done it.
I apologize. I didn’t read the post closely.
I agree with you though. Someone has to have that data easily available.
I cut the tongue out and used elastic laces. Flat elastic laces were much more comfortable for me, than round ones.
I’m sure Ed will be all over this shortly, data provided. I think his entire biz may be built or launching off this very concept (in the spring). So…he may chime in with numbers.
NoPinz has about 2 watts going from a shoe/sock combo to shoe/shoe cover. The saving between laces and Boa closure is really going to depend on things like the number of Boas and placement. If you look at the Specialized test on this topic they say 35 second, so rough guess of 9 watts at 30mph, which is the equivalent to the gain of a full aero shoe cover in the NoPinz data.
I think feet are the final frontier of aero equipment. Nobody has really optimized the wee out of this area.
The Bont Zero+ looks very aero.
https://www.thomasgerlach.com/2016/05/fastest-ironman-bike-shoes-aerodynamics.html
i did it with a much cheaper pair of Louis Garneau LA84 shoes. worked great.
What did you do to the Louis Garneau LA84 ?
I have the LA84. Actually removed the laces and used a soccer cleat silicone lace cover to hold my foot in (I’ve done sprint tests in these, and no power loss). Here’s a pic from my last race:
The Bont Zero+ looks very aero.
I tried to make something similar to that
pretty much, the links above will give some idea. Aerocoach did have a chart a while back comparing some shoes / shoe covers as well. Also Greenplease thread on the wind tunnel he tested some very aero looking Simmons shoes vs. some standard shoes and found very little to no gain.
I’ve tested some (albeit all the shoes I tested were “good” in theory) and I found the Bont Zero’s to be pretty bad. In my opinion… moreso than the hardware it’s the width of the shoe… bonts are very wide (relatively to something like a specialized sub6/giro empire) and I think that’s where a lot of people are seeing the gains they do.
Another issue is that, most likely, the foot itself is very unaero… this makes sense sort of when you think of what shoes are generally fast… either narrow tubes (sub6/empire/etc) or shoes that radically change the shape of the foot (the original Bont Crono’s - not the v2 - and possibly the Velovetta)
Likely the simmons/other custom fit/designed shoes issue is that they are the closest to the actual shape of the foot since they are custom molded around it.
So either have aero shaped feet naturally or try to change it to something aero shaped 
All my opinion of course
NoPinz has about 2 watts going from a shoe/sock combo to shoe/shoe cover. The saving between laces and Boa closure is really going to depend on things like the number of Boas and placement. If you look at the Specialized test on this topic they say 35 second, so rough guess of 9 watts at 30mph, which is the equivalent to the gain of a full aero shoe cover in the NoPinz data.
I think feet are the final frontier of aero equipment. Nobody has really optimized the wee out of this area.
Thanks, Mike. I’m guessing that if I make a few assumptions by combining test results, I may be able to come up with a reasonable conclusion. The Spec testing only compared shoes and found a pretty good savings. Other testing of aero socks vs normal socks or no socks shows a gain similar to shoe covers. Given that my current shoes (Spec S-Works 7) have two big ol honking Boas out on the side, maybe a nice, narrow lace up shoe and aero sock will be as good, if not better, than the 7s with a shoe cover. I’m just over the hassles of shoe covers and expense of replacing them every season.
The Bont Zero+ looks very aero.
Oddly i’ve never seen it test faster than the regular Bont that I can remember. N=3 or so.
I’m curious if anyone has legit info comparing the relative drag of a lace up shoe with a good aero sock vs a similar shoe with Boa or ratchet closures, and a shoe cover?
TIA
You’re conflating several things.
Just bc you have a good aero sock doesn’t mean it’s aero. You need to separate that out. Sock A could be very fast with your shoes yet sock B could be a drag. If you switched shoes the results may be reversed.
I’ve run many tests where the shoe that was supposed to be aero did worse than the regular cycling shoe. I’ve seen the other way as well.
I’ve seen aero socks do worse than non aero socks and bare legs. I’ve seen them do better as well. I think this seems, so far anyway from the cohort I’ve tested, that the faster you go/ lower the yaw angles the greater the chance it works for you.
My Lake 403s in wide are only 2w slower when I take off my velotoez toe covers. I never really remember to put them on when I race tris even though I should for big races like USATAGNC or 70.3’s.
I’ve seen non aero shoes & shoe covers do better than aero shoes and I’ve seen shoe covers that looked like aero POS do really well. In general shoe covers work about half the time give/take a few % points.
Anyone who gets on here and says “oh X & Y are faster than A & B” is blowing smoke up your ass. The only real way to know for sure if something is faster for you is to test.
If there is one thing I’ve learned from all my testing is that generalities are just that. If you don’t test you’re playing the odds, which if you’re not going to test is a good play, yet may not pan out.
For “club runs” I use my Castelli socks instead for not wearing out the race day stuff. Either way, the socks wear IMO at a same rate as shoe covers due to the elastic going bad in the grippers.
IMO, there are some basic concepts here that are pretty well accepted that vendors or other posted tests already cover…narrow shoes good, laces better than side boas, socks or covers for TT better than bare leg.
They sell two Empires, ACC’s and SLX’s. IMO the SLX is a lot narrower or compact a shoe in same size (I own both).
Other than that, it’s still a personal enough area in terms of shape of your calves and whether you really ankle your pedal stroke OR instead flat foot it the entire way that YOU have to do some of the homework. The basics we can point you to, the advanced stuff you have to do your own homework as we just aren’t you.
I think folks misunderstood me lately when I commented about folks asking things. I’m more than willing to chat it up about known accepted norms to someone who just doesn’t know. I’m not going to turn into analyzing somebody like a coach by looking at their pedal stroke, leg shape, and shoe size and provide some kind of custom feedback for that. That’s time I’ll spend on myself because I know myself. I don’t know others on these more “personal” time trial things so can’t really be helpful there.
Honest opinion, go with the accepted norms if on a time budget and wallet budget. If you do have time, you just have to test it yourself. Either by learning to do so, or paying someone to do so.
Kind of like, calves are not symmetrical. But most socks and shoe covers are. Maybe there’s a better way to put them on with the seams rotated one way or another. If they have seams. But my legs look different than yours. So no idea until tried.
but the racing stripe saves 10 watts
(sorry for the hijack, but I’m stoked on how my refurbed simmons came out, and you mentioned simmons in your post)
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