Shoe choice for heavier, slow runner

I’m considering upgrading and getting a pair of race shoes for ironman wa, and would be keen to hear some opinions from everyone.

I do a reasonable swim + bike, but the run is my clear weakness. I have a heavy build at 170cm and will race at 80kgs. Squeezing under 4hrs would be a great PR for me and will be my race goal at Busselton in 5wks or so.

Running for me is hard work - I’m pretty slow and I find the fatigue/breakdown gets me well before my fitness gives in. I’ve tried a few non-carbon shoes for training and settled on bondi 8 as being really forgiving for me. Im conscious of the matt Dixon article which h suggests runners like me just stick to shoes which will prevent fatigue. But he’s not explicit about which shoes he’s ruling in or out.

Should I try one of the hoka carbon shoes? Alphafly?

Thanks everyone!

If you like the Bondi and don’t mind the weight of the shoe then try the Bondi X. Or if it is a flat, smooth, straight course the Prime X Strung seems to be extremely highly rated (if you don’t mind the obscene price point too)

How is your running form?
Carbon plated shoes tend to be more minemalistic than normal shoes so if you start to break down there is no stability/pronation control to catch you. I ran my latest marathon in the Adidas ones, and boy did it hurt due tobad form!

Try a pair of super shoes – you’re still going to get a benefit from them. They’re also designed way differently than a traditional racing flat so they’ll protect your feet well & help with recovery post race.

I’d vote for the Nike Zoom X Invincible as a trainer-*(but I use it on race day a lot)

It has their midsole foam which is unbelievably comfortable and supportive and the shoe is very fast.
(An upgrade to the Zoom X Vaporfly Next% for race day gets you everything plus super speed on race day, but will leave you much poorer.)

But I do believe that all companies have made great strides in newer types of cushioning, so just visit your local running store and talk to someone.

https://youtu.be/lgTPv84n2MM

https://www.nytimes.com/…-shoe-estimates.html

Alphafly. Seriously. Not for all your training, save it for the hardest days and possibly the longest days. You will likely need 2 pairs - one reserved really for race day and near-race day training, and the other for the rest of the year selected training. You will probably benefit from another more durable training shoe to soak up the rest of the miles, as the biggest weakness aside from the Alphafly’s price is that it has been reported to lose its advantageous pop at some point, well under 150 miles of use by most anecdotal users.

The alphafly is the most cushioned of the carbon shoes I’ve used. It makes the carbon Endorphin pro seem hard and nonbouncy in comparison. There is a reason why big-mile marathoners love even training in it - the cushion and bounce really do allow your legs to go faster for less effort, and thus let them recover faster.

The big cush training shoes such as Hoka Bondi, Bondi X, Nike Invicible, Saucony Triumph, Brooks Glycerin - I’ve run in them all, often several iterations. They’re all good, they all have ample padding, and unfortunately they are all heavy and will suck the rebound energy right out of your step, meaning they really make terrible race shoes. On average, 20sec/slower per mile for me compared to carbon racing shoes, possibly more. I literally go up 2 entire classes of running ability when I go from these shoes to the Alphafly, even my Garmin VO2max meter gets super confused by my overperformance on race day with Alphaflys.

Of all the cush bouncy ‘recovery’ shoes, the Nike Invincible is the bounciest. Bondi and Glycerin are less bouncy (Bondi is weirdly firm, actually), and the Triumph is decidedly on the firm side. I have found by accidental trial and error though that the firmer the shoe for me, the faster it goes. The Saucony Triumph is def the most firmest and least bouncy of these cush shoes, but easily the fastest on my long runs compared to the others. Nike Invincible and Bondi are the slowest. It’s enough of a difference that I was wondering why I was able to run so much faster on certain long days than others, and then saw I was always doing it in the Triumphs. (Which still doesn’t touch the Alphafly or Endorphin pro).

Super cush shoes like the Invincible also should come with another warning - if you’re used to all that cush, it does make it harder to run in fast lower-cushion race shoes, and in fact, definitely increases risks of getting a calf or Achilles strain on race day if you intend to change it up to a race shoe. (I got a really bad one in my last race from exactly this - and before this I literally never have had a calf strain from racing, ever, in my prior 20+ years of running.)

I’ve mentioned it a lot before but I have longstanding ankle arthritis, so I can’t just go hog wild with low cushion shoes. I think my ankles are actually a great measure of midsoles - if it’s not as cushioned, I’ll start feeling the sharp pains at around the 20-30 mpw mark (and by then it’s too late as the bone bruising has settled in!) I’d love to run in Alphaflys all the time, but my ankles necessitate that I save the fast shoes for my speed sessions and only a few longer runs before race day.

that is really, really terrific information-thanks for sharing!

Dale

thanks everyone for your opinions. this is super helpful.

how is my run form? i’m not sure, if i had to guess it would probably be pretty bad without being horrific :slight_smile:

i’ve heard/read quite a few times that alphafly is a great choice. probably an optimal choice, even for someone like me. i found a copy of the nytimes data posted by Dale here:

https://hetgeheimvanhardlopen.nl/en/how-much-faster-do-you-run-with-the-nike-vaporfly/

thanks Dale for making me aware of the article. it looks in this chart like they really are an outlier. however, i just realised they are almost $400 in australia (why am i suprised…!?) it seems like a variety of others (say hoka carbon x3, hoka bondi x, novablast) are roughly HALF the price, and the shoe second from the top of the nytimes list, the nike zoom fly is about half the price too!

so in summary i’m not totally sure how to interpret the results in that graph, aside from looking like the nike super shoes are fastest (and crazy expensive). it seems like i can cough up ~$380 for alphafly as a probably optimal choice, but then there are a big set of carbon race shoes around the $200 mark which are likely not AS good, but might be substantially faster than my current bondi 8. right now i target long runs at roughly 5:40/km in my bondi 8, which will be my goal run leg pace for ironman. what do you think the performance gap is likely to be going from hoka 8 to one of say hoka x3, carbon x, novablast, zoom fly, or instead going up to the alphafly… are we talking a couple minutes over my 4:00? more? less?

thanks again for your input everyone - its really appreciated.

Thats a great review! Why dont more reviewers add several comparators (and from the year before) at the same time? And interesting that cushy didnt mean more relaxed muscle for higher performance. I guess thats what they call responsiveness. And transtion shoe to go from safe trainer to minimal racer is a great idea, especially if the OP is coming from Bondi

Cushion must be a bit like tyre pressure, depends a bit on runner weight…cushy for one person could be firm or mushy for another.

For me the clifton and NB Vongo fresh foam sole looks identical, and feel the same bounce walking around…but the clifton was bouncy for 2 years and the NB didnt last one run before feeling dull and bottoming out (is that a international suspension term?)

The Bondi is about he slowest shoe you can find and no way would I recommend it for running in a race, no matter what your speed.
While the super shoes decrease the cost of running the Bondi’s have actually been shown to increase the cost of running. (I’m looking for the research, it might be unpublished, will update if I find it and/or get permission to summarize)

If I wanted a shoe that was faster and race only type of shoe I’d stick to something like the mach, rincon or clifton, carbon x in the hoka lineup.

Saucony you could go with the endorphin shift, or pro. I think the speed will be too little shoe for you based on what you’ve typed.

Nike peg turbo or zoom invincible, but I think you’ll like the peg turbo better. You could try the vapor or alphafly, they may be too little of a shoe for you. worth putting them on.

Brooks - maybe the hyperion tempo, maybe or the launch. The hyperion might cause you to think about your shoe choice late in the race

On is pretty popular in the oceanic region. Maybe try on a few pair although I’m not as familiar with their lineup.

NB - 1080, fuelcell rebel or tempo although the FC will probably be the best race only option

Your best bet is head to a running store and try on several pair. If you stand up in the shoe and/or walk around in it and think meh take it off and try another.

That’s all my undercaffeinated brain can muster up currently.

awesome thanks everyone for their opinions much appreciate.

i think i have enough here to make some decisions. i think i’ll go in and try on a few of the race shoes from good brands that are a bit cheaper than the top super shoes.

probably dropping a few extra kilos will make more of a difference anyways :slight_smile:

thanks again!

If you think you’ll be around the 4-hr mark, then I assume there could be some walk breaks during your run. Consider this when choosing a race-day shoe. I’ve been trying lots of different shoes recently and while some feel great when running, they feel awkward when walking. To add to desert dude’s list, you might want to look at the Saucony Tempus…well cushioned and somewhat responsive (aka bouncy), good support, light(ish), breathable upper, and easy to walk in. Good luck.

If you think you’ll be around the 4-hr mark, then I assume there could be some walk breaks during your run. Consider this when choosing a race-day shoe. I’ve been trying lots of different shoes recently and while some feel great when running, they feel awkward when walking. To add to desert dude’s list, you might want to look at the Saucony Tempus…well cushioned and somewhat responsive (aka bouncy), good support, light(ish), breathable upper, and easy to walk in. Good luck.

The saucony Tempus is my current fav dog walking, dog running and normal running shoe!

I’m considering upgrading and getting a pair of race shoes for ironman wa, and would be keen to hear some opinions from everyone.

I do a reasonable swim + bike, but the run is my clear weakness. I have a heavy build at 170cm and will race at 80kgs. Squeezing under 4hrs would be a great PR for me and will be my race goal at Busselton in 5wks or so.

Running for me is hard work - I’m pretty slow and I find the fatigue/breakdown gets me well before my fitness gives in. I’ve tried a few non-carbon shoes for training and settled on bondi 8 as being really forgiving for me. Im conscious of the matt Dixon article which h suggests runners like me just stick to shoes which will prevent fatigue. But he’s not explicit about which shoes he’s ruling in or out.

Should I try one of the hoka carbon shoes? Alphafly?

Thanks everyone!

At 175 lbs I am not a Clydesdale but I am am envious of the 130-150 lb guys that I race feeling that they have it easier on their knees, etc. It looks like we are the same weight. Running is my my strength though.

I think fit is the most important thing in shoe selection. I go to the store and try on about 10 different shoes from all brands and price ranges. Most stores will let me run in them either on an indoor treadmill or outdoors in the parking lot. The shoe that feels the best at the store is usually going to be the best shoe over the hundreds of miles of use. Some shoes will break in after 25-100 miles or running and be golden after that but why run 100 miles in shoes that are not comfortable when other shoes are good from the get go?

For heaver runners at slower paces I would go with some thing that has a fulcrum or rocker in it. I land on the mid-sole of my foot when I am running at a Z3 pace or faster and I am a heal toe running (landing on the heel and rolling to the toe) when I am running in the Z1-Z2 zones. On long slow runs I love the shoes with the fulcum. They smooth out the run making it more manageable. I have run in the Hoka Bondi and the Asics Ride Glide. I liked the Hoka Bondi rocker a lot better than the Ride Glide rocker. The Bondi felt like I had miniature rocking horses strapped to the bottom of my feet. They were really fun.

The Hoka Carbon are not a shoe I have personally run in. I was told that they have a C-shaped carbon plate that actually pushed you backwards when you land if you are a mid-sole runner. My understanding is that the C-shape is designed for heel-toe runners so if that is how you run they might be a good option. I went with the Alphafly for my race shoe though and was very happy with my selection. I noticed on my first run in them that I was able to do the first half of my long run at a lower heart rate than I had been doing all of my other runs at, but I was going 15 sec/min faster. Towards the end of the my run as I started to fatigue I crossed the Z2 threshold when I started to move from mid sole striking to my more relaxed heel-toe stride. When I did that I could feel the shoe working against me. In my other shoes if I were to see my pace fall 2-3 seconds a mile I would increase my effort by an ever so small degree and see the pace come back down 2-3 seconds a mile and my HR climb 1-3 BPM. In the AlphaFly I increase the effort but my speed stayed flat. So I increase the effort again and my speed stayed flat. So I increase the effort again and still the speed stayed flat. It really freaked my out. I got my HR back up to where it had been on other runs and held things steady at that effort. My speed was still 15 sec/mi faster that other run so I chalked it up as a win, but wasn’t sure what to think of the Alphaflys. It was a week or two later that I learned about the different shapes of carbon plates and that when I crossed over from my mid sole strike running stride to my heel toe running stride that the carbon plate was pushing me backwards. So I only use the Alphafly for racing and when I am racing have to make sure that I don’t slow down to where I start I ship into a heel toe stride.

One last note on the Alphafly. I got them for a Marathon in March of this year. I was supposed to do a 10-Man Marathon replay a few weeks before the Marathon (each of use running 2.6 miles) but it got rained out and rescheduled for the week after the marathon. When I put on my training shoes for a warm up before my 2.6 mile leg of the relay. My quads were exploding with every step of my warm up. The Marathon had trashed my legs and I needed more recovery. The Alphafly had performed so well in the Marathon that I wanted to see what they would do at other distances, so I decided to wear them for the relay. When I put them on the quads felt 100 times better. The Alphafly shoe’s cushioning absorbed the impact with the ground to where it was not transferred to my quads. My time in the 2.6 was faster than my PR pace in the 5K so the shoes worked their magic.

If you can find a Hoka X and and Alphafly in stock try them both on and run in them at the speed you do your run leg for your triathlons. See how they feel. I am guessing the Hoka X might be better for you if you like the Bondi and are running at a slower speed. The Alphafly is the shoe for me though. It is an individual thing. When I got my shoes I couldn’t find any carbon plated shoes at any of the half dozen shoe stores I checked so I took a chance at ordering the Alphafly without trying them on first and it worked out for me. Bondi 8’s will work, but I think the Hoka X or Alphafly will be a game changer. You just have to find out which one is best for your running style and then never look back.

If you think you’ll be around the 4-hr mark, then I assume there could be some walk breaks during your run. Consider this when choosing a race-day shoe. I’ve been trying lots of different shoes recently and while some feel great when running, they feel awkward when walking. To add to desert dude’s list, you might want to look at the Saucony Tempus…well cushioned and somewhat responsive (aka bouncy), good support, light(ish), breathable upper, and easy to walk in. Good luck.

The saucony Tempus is my current fav dog walking, dog running and normal running shoe!

I use it for days when I do strides and alternate it with the Triumph. Every time I wear it, I think about how good it could be for a lot of IM triathletes as a race-day shoe.

Great insight, thanks for the detailed writeup
.

I thought I would quickly complete this thread since I got a heap of useful info in it, and maybe it helps someone else.

I was able to source a few potential shoes from those mentioned in this thread (and a few others). In my uneducated opinion the alphafly just felt amazing. I don’t have the correct words to describe, but the difference going from my bondi’s was night and day. however at the nike store i was able to try both alphafly and tempo next, and to be honest i really couldn’t tell qualitatively between the two. both felt super light, fast, bouncy etc. the alphafly was almost 50% more expensive, so i went with the tempo.

i had about two weeks to get used to them before the race, and for the first time in my life i really enjoyed running (usually i hate it). the speed difference was measurable and i actually felt the load/wear/tear on my body from runs i was doing was noticeably less than what i was used to. i couldnt have been happier.

i ran with them at busselton last weekend and did a 4:24 marathon. it was slower than my goal time but i ran it without my watch (which strangely died right at the start of the bike - and then never turned on again) and think i paced too slow. with some experience i was probably good for much closer to 4:00 (this is the first time ive ever run a marathon, in an ironman or otherwise) as i felt like i had a lot left at the end. but i’m really happy with it given the watch and some other challenges in the lead up that made things hard.

thanks again everyone for the recommendation to not be afraid of carbon :).

II have a heavy build at 170cm and will race at 80kgs.

Thanks everyone!

I’d take those dimensions every day while I’m at 1.9m and 94kg at my emaciated starving skinniest lol

That said, I do really like the Turbo Pegasus

II have a heavy build at 170cm and will race at 80kgs.

Thanks everyone!

I’d take those dimensions every day while I’m at 1.9m and 94kg at my emaciated starving skinniest lol

That said, I do really like the Turbo Pegasus
At 181 and a lean 83kg my favourite training shoe by far. I bought boxes of them before they after they were discontinued. The new Nature version reviews aren’t quite the same so glad I did…

I’m considering upgrading and getting a pair of race shoes for ironman wa, and would be keen to hear some opinions from everyone.

I do a reasonable swim + bike, but the run is my clear weakness. I have a heavy build at 170cm and will race at 80kgs. Squeezing under 4hrs would be a great PR for me and will be my race goal at Busselton in 5wks or so.

Running for me is hard work - I’m pretty slow and I find the fatigue/breakdown gets me well before my fitness gives in. I’ve tried a few non-carbon shoes for training and settled on bondi 8 as being really forgiving for me. Im conscious of the matt Dixon article which h suggests runners like me just stick to shoes which will prevent fatigue. But he’s not explicit about which shoes he’s ruling in or out.

Should I try one of the hoka carbon shoes? Alphafly?

Thanks everyone!

4hrs for a 70.3 is pretty fast. How can you say you’re a slow runner?