Usually when we have these types of sexual harassment accusations and the resulting chaos of everyone giving their weird opinion on what constitutes sexual harassment, it can be confusing. Seems like we always end up hearing a version of, "one day he called me ‘honey’! I’m not his honey! " Then, I often hear my fellow men say that you can’t say ANYTHING to a woman anymore, but that it’s harassment. We also often hear defenses of the practice to never be alone with a woman because who knows what they’ll say. You should never have a relationship in the workplace. And more stuff like that.
However, I have to say that all the allegations I’ve heard of recently are really eggregious examples of true sexual harassment. There’s not one big deal in the press so far that sounds like a normal, civilized, adult pick up move. It’s almost like we need a sex ed class called: How to pick up women without being creepy, scary, or a total tool.
To sum up my main point: this isn’t picking nits about male courting gestures. This is about serious behavioral disfunction that we shouldn’t tolerate. We should be happy that nobody seems to be trying to criminialize civilized flirting and sexual tension in the workplace. I’m liking this purge.
Certainly not many of the incidents sound like normal, civilized, adult pickup moves. (Although several do, actually.) But I also don’t think every douchebag or otherwise inappropriate pickup move amounts to sexual harassment, let alone sexual assault.
Some of Charlie Rose’s reported behavior, for example, seemed innocuous and pretty well within the bounds of normal behavior. Several of the women reported that he gave them a ride to his house, and on the way, reached over and touched their leg. One of them said that it seemed like he was testing her out. Yeah, otherwise known as making a pass. There was no indication that there was any coercion, or that there were any negative repercussions for shutting him down. (Some of his other behavior was more creepy- calling a 21 year old and telling her about his fantasies about her, walking around naked in front of women, etc.)
Lauer’s behavior is just about all creepy/inappropriate, but really- egregious examples of true sexual harassment? Sounds more like he was a crass womanizer. Sure, it’s creepy to give a co-worker a dildo with notes on how he would like it used, and it’s sub-adolescent to be playing “marry/fuck/kill” at work, but does that really and truly amount to sexual harassment, let alone “egregious” sexual harassment?
I think the EEOC has a fairly reasonable definition of sexual harassment- it needs to be what a “reasonable” person would consider it severe or pervasive enough to create a hostile workplace. An unwanted sexual advance, even if clumsy and creepy, doesn’t necessarily qualify automatically.
EEOC is a bad example. My wife does labor law. Near as I can tell, the EEOC never ever saw a sexual harassment complaint they disliked.
Powerful people imagine that rules don’t apply to them. I’m not sure how this manifests with chicks, but with guys, it can certainly mean boorish behavior to the women around you. All these powerful guys getting ruined by the outing of their asshole behavior is a good thing.
Sure, the gray areas are problematic. I was at a HS Cross Country awards dinner tonight. The coach of the guy’s team is a 20 something women. The coach of the much larger and much more successful girls team is a 30ish guy. The senior girls, this being their last season, were talking at the podium with tears streaming down their faces.
I remember vividly being at these same dinners when I ran cross country in HS. Except that the girls team that I remember was 2 girls, and at #'1 son’s HS, the girls team is 2x as big as the guy’s team. Big thumbs up to the girls. Bummer that the guys have lost their moxie. The HS has no football team so CC is the only Fall sport.
There was lots and lots of hugging. I thought to myself, “if I was the coach of a girls team, I’d be damned wary of hugging any of them”. Just asking for trouble.
Lauer’s behavior is just about all creepy/inappropriate, but really- egregious examples of true sexual harassment? Sounds more like he was a crass womanizer. Sure, it’s creepy to give a co-worker a dildo with notes on how he would like it used, and it’s sub-adolescent to be playing “marry/fuck/kill” at work, but does that really and truly amount to sexual harassment, let alone “egregious” sexual harassment?
That’s literally a textbook definition of sexual harassment
Yeah, I don’t know anything about the EEOC’s work in this area in practice- I just think the definition is reasonable. And I’m not defending any of the big names who’ve been fired recently (except maybe Garrison Keillor). But I am saying that in some of the cases, much of the behavior they’re accused of is boorish or clumsy or embarrassing and definitely inappropriate and unprofessional, but maybe not sexual harassment, and certainly not egregious sexual harassment, and also not behavior that was traumatic or otherwise harmful to the “victim.”
What if she plays along, or appreciates the gift? Or what if she doesn’t, says so, and he doesn’t repeat the offense?
Come on man, giving a co-worker a dildo and telling her how you’re going to use it on her? That’s a straight up firing offense. Fuck marry kill could maybe slide if lily white and no other offenses but in this situation probably contributed to the creation of a hostile work environment.
Some of his might be fine if its a random in a bar. None of it is fine when its a person that works for you or beneath you in a corporate hierarchy. None if it.
Come on man, giving a co-worker a dildo and telling her how you’re going to use it on her? That’s a straight up firing offense.
Unless she likes it, right?
Definitely unprofessional and inappropriate. And I have no problem with someone getting fired over it. But that still doesn’t make it sexual harassment, necessarily. Did he have some reason to think it might be well received? Did he stop when it was poorly received? Those things matter.
Fuck marry kill could maybe slide if lily white and no other offenses but in this situation probably contributed to the creation of a hostile work environment.
Taken with the entirety of his behavior, quite possibly. I’m just saying that much of the behavior we’re hearing about about various men does not, by itself, amount to egregious sexual assault.
Some of his might be fine if its a random in a bar. None of it is fine when its a person that works for you or beneath you in a corporate hierarchy. None if it.
Ehhh . . .
Equally objectionable for a woman to flirt with the boss?
Come on man, giving a co-worker a dildo and telling her how you’re going to use it on her? That’s a straight up firing offense.
Unless she likes it, right?
Definitely unprofessional and inappropriate. And I have no problem with someone getting fired over it. But that still doesn’t make it sexual harassment, necessarily. Did he have some reason to think it might be well received? Did he stop when it was poorly received? Those things matter.
Fuck marry kill could maybe slide if lily white and no other offenses but in this situation probably contributed to the creation of a hostile work environment.
Taken with the entirety of his behavior, quite possibly. I’m just saying that much of the behavior we’re hearing about about various men does not, by itself, amount to egregious sexual assault.
Actually those things don’t matter. What matters is giving a co-worker a dildo and telling her how he would like it used is straight up harassment. Don’t believe me, but calling a sow’s ear a purse doesn’t make it so.
Interesting you changed from harassment to assault in your last sentence. FMK would not be assault but it could make for a hostile work environment.
What matters is giving a co-worker a dildo and telling her how he would like it used is straight up harassment.
It doesn’t matter if she likes it? Doesn’t matter if there’s a history that would reasonably give him cause to think she wouldn’t object? Doesn’t matter if he stops when she does object? None of that matters?
Interesting you changed from harassment to assault in your last sentence. FMK would not be assault but it could make for a hostile work environment.
Not so much interesting as just a mistake. I meant sexual harassment. And while FMK *could *make for a hostile work environment, it also might not. In either case, it isn’t something I’d call “egregious.”
I suppose there is some scenario where it could. But you don’t get a free bite at the apple. This has come up in various ways in a couple different threads. Pinching/smacking/groping butts but stopping when told not to. Giving a dildo but stopping when told to stop, etc.
People aren’t obligated to let you do it once and then raise the objection. If you do it and they didn’t like it, you are wrong the first time. You don’t get to beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. No one owes you that.
So sure, give it a whirl. Some woman somewhere may like a smack on the ass, a bottle of lube, and a 3 foot dildo just because it is Tuesday. The other 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000 your ass is rightfully fired.
<<Some woman somewhere may like a smack on the ass, a bottle of lube, and a 3 foot dildo just because it is Tuesday. The other 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000 your ass is rightfully fired.>>
People aren’t obligated to let you do it once and then raise the objection.
Depends, though, doesn’t it? Again, what’s their history? And again, what if she doesn’t object?
What about FMK? Not OK to bring it up at all, ever?
What about touching a woman on the leg as you’re giving her a ride to your house? Not OK, ever? Context doesn’t matter, ever- only the woman’s reaction to it the first time?
People aren’t obligated to let you do it once and then raise the objection.
Depends, though, doesn’t it? Again, what’s their history? And again, what if she doesn’t object?
What about FMK? Not OK to bring it up at all, ever?
What about touching a woman on the leg as you’re giving her a ride to your house? Not OK, ever? Context doesn’t matter, ever- only the woman’s reaction to it the first time?
Ever/never is a very long time. Again, there may be some scenario somewhere that it is ok.
But I also would never ever tell you it is ok to play FMK at work.
No idea why you are ‘giving her a ride to your house’. Did you mean her house? And context does matter. But dating/trying to date coworkers is fraught with danger, which is why many employers try to ban it ( I met, dated, and married my wife while we work together for the record).
Your leg touching scenario cannot be answered, not enough information.
What matters is giving a co-worker a dildo and telling her how he would like it used is straight up harassment.
It doesn’t matter if she likes it? Doesn’t matter if there’s a history that would reasonably give him cause to think she wouldn’t object? Doesn’t matter if he stops when she does object? None of that matters?
