Scout Sniper argument

So on my feed somebody posted a picture of a Scout Sniper group. IN the background was the American flag and a flag with SS in the familiar lightening bolts of the Nazi SS fame. Pages and pages of arguments ensued with the obvious people asking why? Or what the hell with way too many people justifying the use of this. Saying that they are Nordic lightening bolts that the Nazi’s coopted, that they signal Elite, etc, etc, etc. Personally I didn’t see any reason to jump into the argument, but in my opinion, whatever it meant before WWII it is now too closely associated with Hitler SS to ever have a legitimate use. Apparently, this Snipers were reprimanded for that and justifiably so. The use of such symbolism has no place in the US military and I don’t buy the arguments. In fact, I think the Snipers knew full well the reaction it would invoke and were either racist themselves or didn’t give a fuck. And those defending it, are racist themselves.

So, here is the picture. What do you think? Anybody want to defend this?

https://img.rt.com/files/oldfiles/news/marines-nazi-flag-scandal-965/image-frim-httpknightarmcocom.si.jpg

So on my feed somebody posted a picture of a Scout Sniper group. IN the background was the American flag and a flag with SS in the familiar lightening bolts of the Nazi SS fame. Pages and pages of arguments ensued with the obvious people asking why? Or what the hell with way too many people justifying the use of this. Saying that they are Nordic lightening bolts that the Nazi’s coopted, that they signal Elite, etc, etc, etc. Personally I didn’t see any reason to jump into the argument, but in my opinion, whatever it meant before WWII it is now too closely associated with Hitler SS to ever have a legitimate use. Apparently, this Snipers were reprimanded for that and justifiably so. The use of such symbolism has no place in the US military and I don’t buy the arguments. In fact, I think the Snipers knew full well the reaction it would invoke and were either racist themselves or didn’t give a fuck. And those defending it, are racist themselves.

So, here is the picture. What do you think? Anybody want to defend this?

https://img.rt.com/files/oldfiles/news/marines-nazi-flag-scandal-965/image-frim-httpknightarmcocom.si.jpg

no, and I served in the Kiss Army

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xkp8kkxDqEw/Uo5RUvctR7I/AAAAAAAAfzg/v_3Kwa9_Pg4/s1600/kissarmylogo.GIF

You know this picture is from 2010, right?

Yes, it is old. I recall it from a few years back, but it popped up and people are justifying it still today. Some even calld CMC Amos a snowflake for even addressing it.

Maybe I’m ignorant, and some will probably say that I am. However, I would not have associated that flag/image with nazi’s. It never crossed my mind. I have to admit that it still doesn’t, even after you wrote about it.

I just googled nazi SS symbol and see what you’re talking about. But I still don’t recall noticing that symbol. Maybe these guys are the same way? That being said, I would have to think that over the years someone might have called it to their attention.

Some people orgasm over shit like this.

So on my feed somebody posted a picture of a Scout Sniper group. IN the background was the American flag and a flag with SS in the familiar lightening bolts of the Nazi SS fame. Pages and pages of arguments ensued with the obvious people asking why? Or what the hell with way too many people justifying the use of this. Saying that they are Nordic lightening bolts that the Nazi’s coopted, that they signal Elite, etc, etc, etc. Personally I didn’t see any reason to jump into the argument, but in my opinion, whatever it meant before WWII it is now too closely associated with Hitler SS to ever have a legitimate use. Apparently, this Snipers were reprimanded for that and justifiably so. The use of such symbolism has no place in the US military and I don’t buy the arguments. In fact, I think the Snipers knew full well the reaction it would invoke and were either racist themselves or didn’t give a fuck. And those defending it, are racist themselves.

So, here is the picture. What do you think? Anybody want to defend this?

Sometimes young Marines (well all young men, but for some reason especially young Marines) do stupid shit.
There is no justification or place for it. Period. They were reprimanded and their Plt Cmdr should have been too.

My impression of my time in the Marines, was it was the least racist place I’ve ever been… “light green and dark green” Marines, but all Marines as its said. I had white, black, hispanic, asian, rednecks, inner city, small town, east coast, west coast, north, south, some college, not sure how they graduated high school, short, tall, fast, slow, skinny, muscular, etc, etc in my platoons, none of them seemed to give a shit as long a their squad members didn’t let the team down.

Not a good decision but…

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5vkasNg7h1rys4czo1_500.gif

I served with some of the snipers in the picture before they became snipers (No, I am not a sniper). I haven’t talked to them since the incident, but my impression of them was not as racists or youth typically associated with racist behavior. They were your typical type-A, aggressive, high school contact sports team members that you want your front line troops to be (as a large number of Marines tend to be). Some were good, some were problem-children, but by in large they were all proud American patriots.

As a 25 year Marine infantryman myself (both officer and enlisted), every single unit I served in had some type of logo, picture, and history. The pictures and logos are often hand made by the individuals in the unit at the time (personnel rotate in these units about every 18 months). I’m sure in hindsight, this particular version of SS can be seen as poor taste and a bad decision, but even I didn’t see it as such until the whole controversy exploded and I feel confident that they didn’t either. Each Scout Sniper unit typically has their own version of SS in their logo (for use on coins, t-shirts, stickers, etc)

I might give a pass to a bunch of millenials without college degrees. But the NCOs and officers should and should have put their foot down long before it escalated.

When I was in a cadet program in college, knew the symbols, granted I read a lot about WWII in high school. But I think most knew what the SS was. Now maybe because WWII themed movies were common in my generation and the one before. But that is beside the point I’m pointing out. This is an argument taking place today with full understanding of the nazi ties justifying it as preparing nazis and anybody who is offended should get over it.

What would a WWII marine think?

didn’t give a fuck.

That’s my bet. And I don’t either…

Fair point, so is your opinion at this point if you are offended “get over it”? That it doesn’t matter that it is now associated by the SS, it has lineage long predating Nazi? How about if they used a Swastika that could be interpreted to be two SS. *Schutzstaffel translates into protection squad. One of the idiots defending its use said that scout snipers are a protection squad so would it not be appropriate? I’ll take your word, these guys weren’t racist, but somebody should have been aware of this, and nobody should be defending its continued use or calling the CMC a snowflake for addressing it appropriately. *

*I’ll take your word, these guys weren’t racist, but somebody should have been aware of this, and **nobody should be defending its continued use **or calling the CMC a snowflake for addressing it appropriately. *

I’m not offended, but I think it was a bad decision and they should discontinue it’s use.

Was any of this directed at me??? I was only providing context of my actual PERSONAL knowledge / acquantance with people actually in the photo and my knowledge, based on service together, of the behavior they exhibited.

How do you get that my impression is " Get over it" from anything i provided???

Who said anything about it’s continued use? Pretty sure it was shut down as soon as the brass caught wind of it.

I looked at the picture quickly and thought it was the # 44…

No it wasn’t directed at you.

The point I’m making is not so much the initial picture or even using the flag, but that a sizable number of lowlifes seem to defend the use of it. I was asking you if you agree with some of the post I saw based on your reasonable explanation. Do you think it people should “just get over it”?

This article is spot on from my point of view.

Like a Marine in a properly executed MCMAP training session, the Marine Corps is taking its lumps in the image department lately. In April of last year, Lance Corporal Harry Lew committed suicide in Afghanistan after experiencing sustained hazing on the part of his squadmates. Although there is no way to tell if the hazing caused LCpl Lew’s suicide, it almost certainly contributed to it. The story remains in the news as the Marines involved go through the court martial process. In January, the story broke that Marines, including Staff NCOs, had filmed themselves urinating on corpses of Taliban fighters. I’m not going to comment specifically on these two issues as the failure in ethics is pretty obvious. Anytime a Marine is ostracized in his unit, for whatever reason, the leadership has failed. The desecration of human corpses, whether filmed or not, is indefensible.

I will, however, comment more specifically about the use of the SS logo on flags since there seems to be some debate over whether or not it was appropriate. I’ll ignore the fact that scout snipers apparently think that they are special snowflakes entitled to their own flag above and beyond the traditional scarlet and gold Marine Corps flag that every other unit uses. The first excuse posited by those who want to brush this most recent PR nightmare under the rug is that the scout snipers were ignorant of what the symbol meant. I guess that’s possible. What’s not possible is that every SNCO and Officer in charge of every scout sniper unit that used the flag shared that ignorance. No way. They just refused to do anything about it.

The second, and far less believable excuse is that the SS logo is disconnected from the Nazi ideology and simply a reflection of Marines’respect for German military prowess. Nothing could be further from the truth. The SS were not a military unit. They were a paramilitary unit formed to protect Nazi party meetings from interference, chosen for their loyalty to the Nazi party. A subset of the SS, the Waffen-SS, was tasked with combat operations against Nazi Germany’s enemies, but this does not change the fact that the overall purpose of the SS was the execution of Nazi ideological aims. Even if we were to look to Nazi Germany for inspiration for military prowess, it was the Wehrmacht that achieved blinding military success, not the SS. The next excuse will inevitably be that the Wehrmacht were not Nazis. Again, this is not true. SS units tasked with extermination missions were attached to Wehrmacht units and thus under the command of Wehrmacht officers. Nowhere is there an example of Wehrmacht units interfering with or failing to support the mission of the SS as they murdered their way across Europe. Additionally, it was the Wehrmacht, not the SS, who were responsible for the care and transit of prisoners of war captured by German forces. Millions of prisoners, particularly Soviet soldiers, starved to death or were shot for failing to march out of the forward operating areas fast enough. These POWs, being Russian, were not as human as the German soldiers were after all. Still don’t believe me? I’ll let someone whose vaunted military prowess earned him the rank of Field Marshall in the Wehrmacht, Walter von Reichenau, speak for himself. “The soldier must have understanding for the necessity of the harsh yet just punishment of the Jewish sub humans… He is called upon to achieve two goals. 1) The extermination of the Bolshevik heresy… 2) The merciless extermination of foreign treachery and cruelty to safeguard… the German Wehrmacht in Russia.” This is not by any means the worst example of Nazism amongst Wehermacht leadership, it was simply the first one I found. To claim that the snipers use the SS logo as a nod to German military prowess in World War II and not as a symbol of Nazism is false. There was no distinction between them then and there should not be now. This is nothing more than an excuse that leaders will use to conceal their moral cowardice when it came to allowing the use of this flag.

My purpose in writing this post, however, is not to lecture misguided defenders of these actions, (OK, maybe that last one was a little bit) but to point out the sickness that these symptoms portend. First, I have to go back to LtCol Grice’s article about socks and supervision. The Colonel’s article seems to describe a trend of over-supervision in the Marine Corps. Most Marines would undoubtedly agree. Some Marines enjoy enforcing the minutiae of our ever expanding array of regulations, the majority of which are irrelevant to wars past, let alone the current wars. This activity, and presumably the memorization of these esoteric regulations, consumed the majority of their time, as has been mentioned on this blog before.
So, if Marines are spending so much time being supervised and increasing centralization is destroying leaders’ ability to make decisions for their own unit, why do events like this keep happening? There’s only one possible explanation. We don’t know how to supervise anymore.

Every Marine has heard the old trope that supervision is the most important step in BAMCIS, but do we know how to do it? It’s more than just ensuring that tasks get accomplished, regulations are adhered to, and Marines are present for duty. If you, as a leader, are not affecting how those tasks get accomplished, which of those regulations are followed, and how Marines conduct themselves when not present for duty, you’re only doing the bare minimum of what is expected of you. If your only method for affecting your Marines as your subordinates is punishment and paperwork, you’ve yet to learn the meaning of leadership. No matter how long you’ve been in.
LtCol Grice’s post and these tragic events that have come to light lately prove that we no longer know how to supervise, lead, and maintain discipline. We’re supervising the wrong things. Unfortunately, there’s no real way to retrain the Marine Corps to fix our supervision problem. It’s a direct result of our culture. Our culture has brought us to the point where we all bear responsibility for these events. Every one of us. Every NCO who is more concerned with knocking out a checklist than mentoring his young Marines. Every SNCO who spends time searching out uniform regulation infractions. Every officer more concerned with paperwork and formats than setting an example. Every Marine, of any rank, who has told a subordinate to “shut up and color” when he or she pointed out that something was wrong. Our acquiescence to a culture of corrosive leadership has created this problem. We allowed leadership to be conflated with the creation and rote memorization of irrelevant regulations. We stopped mentoring and started poor parenting. We allowed bureaucratization to drown professionalism. We fostered a belief that we are special snowflakes who need rules, but not morality. We hazed Lance Corporal Lew. We desecrated human bodies. We posed in front of Nazi symbology. It’s our fault that the Commandant has had to publicly apologize for a problem that our poor leadership caused.

All of these events were a failure of leadership. Every Marine involved knew that what they were doing is wrong, but they did nothing to stop it. This is a problem that a safety standown, more specific regulations, and education about morality and ethics will not fix. We have fostered a culture that takes perverse pleasure in enforcing irrelevant standards while simultaneously ignoring or enabling true misconduct. We’ve fostered a generation of Marines who will look at the picture of the scout snipers and see facial hair, unbloused boots, and hands in pockets before they notice Nazi propaganda. They will quickly condemn failures in appearance but will enable and defend moral failings. They will ignore and allow a Lance Corporal to be hazed and ostracized. They will join in with the desecration of bodies. These are our priorities. But at least the grass around the battalion CP will remain undisturbed by feet clad in identical socks.

Fix it.

CMC a snowflake

The differences between Snowflakes and Air Wingers (at the time the Marines had their first-and only- non Grunt as CMC, and he was widely recognized to not be the strongest leader) are sometimes difficult for grunts to distinguish.

Sometimes young Marines (well all young men, but for some reason especially young Marines) do stupid shit.
There is no justification or place for it. Period. They were reprimanded and their Plt Cmdr should have been too.

My impression of my time in the Marines, was it was the least racist place I’ve ever been… “light green and dark green” Marines, but all Marines as its said. I had white, black, hispanic, asian, rednecks, inner city, small town, east coast, west coast, north, south, some college, not sure how they graduated high school, short, tall, fast, slow, skinny, muscular, etc, etc in my platoons, none of them seemed to give a shit as long a their squad members didn’t let the team down.

All of this. It’s one of the aspects of my time in the Marine Corps that I felt was a very positive influence on me, as a kid from rural Minnesota where folks could be classified as “pale” or “really pale.” I view everyone as “us” and it bothers me when people will refer to a subset of us as “them”. We’re all sharing this big rock. At some level, we’re all in this together.

With that said, you give a bunch of young Marines the chance to do something stupid and they’ll do it with gusto. I know I did. I’ll have things that will haunt me for the rest of my life, but they made sense at the time - or at least we didn’t think we were hurting anybody. This is similar to that. The Scout Sniper SS thing has been around for a long time, but we document our lives through pictures a lot more now. I’m glad I didn’t have a camera in my phone and an Internet connection when I was in.

This article is spot on from my point of view.

Like a Marine in a properly executed MCMAP training session, the Marine Corps is taking its lumps in the image department lately. In April of last year, Lance Corporal Harry Lew committed suicide in Afghanistan after experiencing sustained hazing on the part of his squadmates. Although there is no way to tell if the hazing caused LCpl Lew’s suicide, it almost certainly contributed to it. The story remains in the news as the Marines involved go through the court martial process. In January, the story broke that Marines, including Staff NCOs, had filmed themselves urinating on corpses of Taliban fighters. I’m not going to comment specifically on these two issues as the failure in ethics is pretty obvious. Anytime a Marine is ostracized in his unit, for whatever reason, the leadership has failed. The desecration of human corpses, whether filmed or not, is indefensible.

I will, however, comment more specifically about the use of the SS logo on flags since there seems to be some debate over whether or not it was appropriate. I’ll ignore the fact that scout snipers apparently think that they are special snowflakes entitled to their own flag above and beyond the traditional scarlet and gold Marine Corps flag that every other unit uses. The first excuse posited by those who want to brush this most recent PR nightmare under the rug is that the scout snipers were ignorant of what the symbol meant. I guess that’s possible. What’s not possible is that every SNCO and Officer in charge of every scout sniper unit that used the flag shared that ignorance. No way. They just refused to do anything about it.

The second, and far less believable excuse is that the SS logo is disconnected from the Nazi ideology and simply a reflection of Marines’respect for German military prowess. Nothing could be further from the truth. The SS were not a military unit. They were a paramilitary unit formed to protect Nazi party meetings from interference, chosen for their loyalty to the Nazi party. A subset of the SS, the Waffen-SS, was tasked with combat operations against Nazi Germany’s enemies, but this does not change the fact that the overall purpose of the SS was the execution of Nazi ideological aims. Even if we were to look to Nazi Germany for inspiration for military prowess, it was the Wehrmacht that achieved blinding military success, not the SS. The next excuse will inevitably be that the Wehrmacht were not Nazis. Again, this is not true. SS units tasked with extermination missions were attached to Wehrmacht units and thus under the command of Wehrmacht officers. Nowhere is there an example of Wehrmacht units interfering with or failing to support the mission of the SS as they murdered their way across Europe. Additionally, it was the Wehrmacht, not the SS, who were responsible for the care and transit of prisoners of war captured by German forces. Millions of prisoners, particularly Soviet soldiers, starved to death or were shot for failing to march out of the forward operating areas fast enough. These POWs, being Russian, were not as human as the German soldiers were after all. Still don’t believe me? I’ll let someone whose vaunted military prowess earned him the rank of Field Marshall in the Wehrmacht, Walter von Reichenau, speak for himself. “The soldier must have understanding for the necessity of the harsh yet just punishment of the Jewish sub humans… He is called upon to achieve two goals. 1) The extermination of the Bolshevik heresy… 2) The merciless extermination of foreign treachery and cruelty to safeguard… the German Wehrmacht in Russia.” This is not by any means the worst example of Nazism amongst Wehermacht leadership, it was simply the first one I found. To claim that the snipers use the SS logo as a nod to German military prowess in World War II and not as a symbol of Nazism is false. There was no distinction between them then and there should not be now. This is nothing more than an excuse that leaders will use to conceal their moral cowardice when it came to allowing the use of this flag.

My purpose in writing this post, however, is not to lecture misguided defenders of these actions, (OK, maybe that last one was a little bit) but to point out the sickness that these symptoms portend. First, I have to go back to LtCol Grice’s article about socks and supervision. The Colonel’s article seems to describe a trend of over-supervision in the Marine Corps. Most Marines would undoubtedly agree. Some Marines enjoy enforcing the minutiae of our ever expanding array of regulations, the majority of which are irrelevant to wars past, let alone the current wars. This activity, and presumably the memorization of these esoteric regulations, consumed the majority of their time, as has been mentioned on this blog before.
So, if Marines are spending so much time being supervised and increasing centralization is destroying leaders’ ability to make decisions for their own unit, why do events like this keep happening? There’s only one possible explanation. We don’t know how to supervise anymore.

Every Marine has heard the old trope that supervision is the most important step in BAMCIS, but do we know how to do it? It’s more than just ensuring that tasks get accomplished, regulations are adhered to, and Marines are present for duty. If you, as a leader, are not affecting how those tasks get accomplished, which of those regulations are followed, and how Marines conduct themselves when not present for duty, you’re only doing the bare minimum of what is expected of you. If your only method for affecting your Marines as your subordinates is punishment and paperwork, you’ve yet to learn the meaning of leadership. No matter how long you’ve been in.
LtCol Grice’s post and these tragic events that have come to light lately prove that we no longer know how to supervise, lead, and maintain discipline. We’re supervising the wrong things. Unfortunately, there’s no real way to retrain the Marine Corps to fix our supervision problem. It’s a direct result of our culture. Our culture has brought us to the point where we all bear responsibility for these events. Every one of us. Every NCO who is more concerned with knocking out a checklist than mentoring his young Marines. Every SNCO who spends time searching out uniform regulation infractions. Every officer more concerned with paperwork and formats than setting an example. Every Marine, of any rank, who has told a subordinate to “shut up and color” when he or she pointed out that something was wrong. Our acquiescence to a culture of corrosive leadership has created this problem. We allowed leadership to be conflated with the creation and rote memorization of irrelevant regulations. We stopped mentoring and started poor parenting. We allowed bureaucratization to drown professionalism. We fostered a belief that we are special snowflakes who need rules, but not morality. We hazed Lance Corporal Lew. We desecrated human bodies. We posed in front of Nazi symbology. It’s our fault that the Commandant has had to publicly apologize for a problem that our poor leadership caused.

All of these events were a failure of leadership. Every Marine involved knew that what they were doing is wrong, but they did nothing to stop it. This is a problem that a safety standown, more specific regulations, and education about morality and ethics will not fix. We have fostered a culture that takes perverse pleasure in enforcing irrelevant standards while simultaneously ignoring or enabling true misconduct. We’ve fostered a generation of Marines who will look at the picture of the scout snipers and see facial hair, unbloused boots, and hands in pockets before they notice Nazi propaganda. They will quickly condemn failures in appearance but will enable and defend moral failings. They will ignore and allow a Lance Corporal to be hazed and ostracized. They will join in with the desecration of bodies. These are our priorities. But at least the grass around the battalion CP will remain undisturbed by feet clad in identical socks.

Fix it.

CMC a snowflake

The differences between Snowflakes and Air Wingers (at the time the Marines had their first-and only- non Grunt as CMC, and he was widely recognized to not be the strongest leader) are sometimes difficult for grunts to distinguish.

Yes, this article is the point I’m making. If not a failure on the part of the individual soldiers, definitely a failure on leadership and indefensible. So these jackoff on this particular group I’m a member of are way off base in defending or justifying its use. For the record, that is a 3%er group. I swear with each day, I’m seriously considering cutting off any ties to them.